- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
In the hours following former President Donald Trump’s election victory, Google searches related to 4B — a fringe South Korean feminist movement that made a name for itself in the mid to late 2010s — surged in the United States.
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Whatever “power that be” is attacking all the pillars that uphold good democratic societies. It started with Government moved to Science then Medicine, and Media, it attacked trust in Police and Courts. It has been systematic.
I knew relationships between men and women should be in there since it is such a major part of keeping a society running but I never knew how it would get attacked. Honestly never thought it could. Lately its been obvious reading some places online like where the whole idea of marriage is treated like a dessert and where people gather to describe every ick imaginable while demanding that its members deserve only the best most succulent desserts.
There’s a total break down of society and I don’t think its just natural. I fully believe there’s some paradigm shift going on and this is all the groundwork for it.
I thought this was common knowledge that the elites waged a culture war after occupy Wall Street.
What is unfortunate is that their strategy sinks the very ship they sit on top of.
They were saying it out loud years before that.
it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning
- Warren Buffet, 2006
Does it?
Maybe I’m wrong in this but it’s all status quo. If you are in a group who has power but you’re losing that power then you need to change the status quo. But that’s never to impossible without a disruption. You need a bit of chaos and using the metaphor, you need to have water coming into the boat for people you change their seats
I dunno about it being unnatural. It’s in our nature to destroy ourselves. [/Arnie accent] But I don’t doubt that there are powers stoking that fire, hoping that if they accelerate collapse in a particular way, they can come out on top. Eat the most futures, and you may prolong your present. [Insert Saturn Devouring His Son]
That’s the way I see. They’re after a collapse. When the collapse happens they are there to pick things up and be reposition into the power vacuum
Which ironically is a top climate change helper. One silicon valley baby is worth half a damn African village in terms of carbon footprint.
It’s the affluent, highly-educated, well-off women (by world standards) who have the biggest effect by having fewer children.
Plus, a whole category of nazi bullshut dodged, the original point.
It’s their body and their choice. Simple as that.
It should be at least.
Judging from all the hurt feelings and angry defensiveness I’m seeing in this thread this might be an extremely effective form of protest. Fragile toxic masculinity is so predictable.
As a dominatrix- yes, chastity tends to yield very responsive subs.
Now that’s someone I’d vote for!
It’s tiering all these boys who “I don’t want to” behave.
You can tell a protest is working when it causes people to elect the people you’re protesting against
It even worked retroactively!
\S
You’re right, time will tell whether a protest that specifically targets the group that didn’t vote alongside us, and tries to make their life worse, will get them to vote alongside us next time. I’ll be holding my breath.
You’re right, women need to vow to Maga so that they will start respecting women.
I’ll be holding my breath.
I have reasons to believe you have been doing that for too long already
I need you to understand that not a single MAGA guy would be affected by this. 45% of women voted for Trump. MAGA guys have no problem finding women willing to date them. Progressive and centrist guys would. This isn’t about women bowing to MAGA, this is about finding an effective way to protest, which this is not.
MAGA guys have no problem finding women willing to date them. Progressive and centrist guys would.
Source needed. Here in the PNW, men who are leftwing and caring are so sought out that polyamory is acceptable and women literally recommend men to each other. Most of these men are “polysaturated,” meaning they are at a maximum of partners they can emotionally and physically fulfill.
The monogamous ones are all taken too. Conservative men actively hide or lie about their political affiliation to get dates, and this was such a widespread trend that they weren’t able to find dates they had to make the app The Right Stuff. Because they couldn’t find dates on TINDER. Lol.
What will happen is that the few women who don’t know or who do want to date, will date those few sweet progressive men, and there will be a lot more leftovers. Most women on apps are discarding matches until they find a perfect one anyway so this is already the standard in many ways, it will just be amplified.
Oh and something else you all won’t like, is that strippers and sex workers will start to become more exclusive and expensive as their clientele increases. Men are going to be increasingly mad about that as well. Only Fans already changed the business model of stripping a bit.
The PNW voted mostly for Harris. Conservative and apathetic men living there are not the men we need votes from.
Conservative men actively hide or lie about their political affiliation to get dates, and this was such a widespread trend that they weren’t able to find dates they had to make the app The Right Stuff. Because they couldn’t find dates on TINDER. Lol.
Doesn’t this completely debunk the idea that denying relationships to conservative and apathetic men makes them more progressive? They’ll literally lie about their political beliefs and make apps to find conservative women before adjusting their beliefs to become more dateable
Oh and something else you all won’t like, is that strippers and sex workers will start to become more exclusive and expensive as their clientele increases
I’m starting to realize you think I’m a conservative. You’re making a lot of assumptions about me that aren’t necessarily true. Like, the idea that I’m allosexual. I couldn’t care less about the price of strippers and sex workers if I tried
Literally lold at your last comment
I’m guessing you have a protest going against reading comprehension.
No, I have good reading comprehension relative to the average American. Do you want to try to explain to me how a protest that specifically targets progressive men is an effective way to get men to be more progressive?
“Just don’t be a bad guy and you won’t be the target!” This movement makes no distinction between conservative and progressive men, it is explicitly about absolute denial of sex, dating, marriage, and children.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% in favor of women not dating conservative men if they don’t want to. A movement that draws attention to the fact that women have the option of breaking up with their boyfriends and divorcing their husbands would be fantastic. A movement that specifically tries to deny relationships to the people that you’re trying to deradicalize is not that.
But go ahead and keep downvoting me. I’m trying to explain how we need to avoid losing more voters, and you’re sitting there repeating the same shit that lost us those voters in the first place.
If you truly want to understand the nature of this protest, it’s important to understand where women are coming from with this.
No matter one’s sex or gender, the dating process can be exhausting. Guys are exhausted from always making the first move and getting nowhere for the effort. Women are exhausted from sorting through all the men and messages, most of whom show zero interest in her as a person. Cis-men don’t see the regular dehumanization and sexualization that all women experience upon entry to the dating scene.
On dating apps, so, so many guys will ignore profiles and send low effort messages like, “Ur pretty. Wanna hook up?” Checking messages can elicit the same feeling you’d get from clearing out your spam folder one email at a time… except each spam message expects you to suck its dick. Some even threaten violence if rejected. When women leave dating sites and dating scenes, that’s the male behavior they’re opting to escape from.
Now we also have (or are bracing to have) our reproductive rights taken away. We see the stories of pregnant women being denied care, suffering, and dying. We don’t want to become a reproductive rights martyr just because a condom broke.
This protest may have a consequence that men don’t like, but expecting women to give in just so progressive men can get laid ignores the issues that sparked this protest in the first place.
It tells us everything. It says you don’t understand what we’re going through. It says you don’t care what we’re going through. It says you think your desire to have sex is worth more than our very lives.
In a way, you’re proving these women right. If your attitude is reflective of other so-called “progressive” men, then I can’t blame any woman who chooses to have nothing to do with any men at all.
It tells us everything. It says you don’t understand what we’re going through. It says you don’t care what we’re going through. It says you think your desire to have sex is worth more than our very lives.
I was with you right up until this point. My single status has no effect on my political beliefs, and I’m going to keep voting in favor of your rights, no matter how much you try to tell me that I don’t care about you.
I’m entirely in favor of women exercising bodily autonomy. As a movement for protecting women, this is great. As a movement for affecting political change, this is not. Sell it as the former, and I’m in favor. Sell it as the latter, and I’m going to argue.
There are more goals than some grand, over-arching “change.” On an extremely basic, self-preserving level, there is a goal of “not getting pregnant while living in a country that actively endangers the lives of pregnant women.”
If it brings about change that would be awesome. But regardless of that, by swearing off relationships and sex, we’re still not getting pregnant. Ergo, we are able to keep our bodily autonomy. Which, I guess I have to remind you, we would lose if we got pregnant.
Unless (non-sterilize) progressive men have some special sperm that doesn’t attempt to fertilize an egg, creating an exception based on beliefs would still put our lives at risk.
Did you read the part where I said
I’m entirely in favor of women exercising bodily autonomy. As a movement for protecting women, this is great.
?
Bros here think they’re making solid points, but all I hear is “wah wah wah”. You hashtag notAllMen out there with dry stalks need to do a better job of challenging the misogynistic attitudes of your peers.
extremely effective form of protest
…i honestly dont think it’s going to achieve anything and it certainly won’t undo the election result
I mean you could go the opposite route and do a FWB style approach to votes in the next election. If withholding sex is the stick, what’s the carrot? Offering sex?
A decent proportion of votes for trump were protest votes and a disproportionate amount were young men. Why not invest the effort in understanding why it is they feel that the Republican party offers them something that the democratic party does not?
Wow, what an amazing ally to women you are. You are totally willing to just use our bodies and vaginas for your own goals, just like that, huh?
Well, what’s stopping you? You have two holes and two hands, presumably. Get to work buying votes. Plenty of conservative men like men. Download Grinder and you can start tonight. Stay safe.
Swing and a miss mate, can’t threaten me with a good time.
I live in Australia, voting is compulsory, women don’t have to withhold sex in order to foment political change.
You didn’t answer my question tho, what’s stopping you from understanding why young men in the us voted for trump? Especially young men who would “normally” vote democrat?
what’s stopping you from understanding why young men in the us voted for trump? Especially young men who would “normally” vote democrat?
Lmfao go fuck yourself. It’s YOU who doesn’t understand, ya fucking gender narcissist. I’m not automatically wrong because I’m a woman.
The reason men are moving rightwards is because of the global war we are already in. Russia has been making, disseminating, AND FUNDING VIA CRYPTO, right wing men and voices all over the world. They’ve done this en masse, all over every social media and video game, in Minecraft servers even. There are KGB books describing how they would go after divisions in America to create a civil war. They went after our military fighting force to cripple us with a civil war while they start WW3. The rush of superhero media after 9/11 and Call of Duty/military online games was a perfect breeding ground for this.
Russia is working with Saudi Arabia and Elon Musk to destroy journalism so we can’t communicate what’s happening. Since Khashoggi and the Panama Papers.
Trump is a Russian asset literally proven in court. It’s entirely possible he will start a civil war here soon. He will absolutely be siphoning money from the US to Russia. And we will be sending bodies to fight Russia’s wars too. Russian revenge is about to start. Trump will start to go after his enemies, likely Biden, Hilary, Obama, Taylor Swift, Kamala. All of those people should literally flee the country on Jan 20th and wait to come back until he’s not in office.
He’s under Putin’s control and look at what mercy Putin had for Navalny. Putin is going to get revenge on America and soon Germany and any other nation he feels justified in harming.
How do you all not see that? And then blame WOMEN? For an active hostile military propaganda campaign by a hostile nation?
Yeah ofc we don’t want to fuck men anymore. And yes, they would’ve have just gotten worse anyway because we were never the original cause, quite obviously.
Politically, we are asserting our rights to our bodies. It’s a profound political statement that already has men ITT discussing and debating, but ultimately the most important part is that women are asserting the power they have over their bodies. Only in a fascist state is that political or controversial.
But yeah it’s totally women’s fault men are going to get worse and that’s not just an excuse to abuse women more and blame them for it /s
Oh wow
I am conflicted, halfway between genuine concern for you as a human being and being completely unsurprised at six paras of unhinged ramblings.
Suffice to say - this only exists in your head, and there’s a reason you’re finding it hard to build meaningful relationships.
Good luck, I hope you feel better soon.
Lol do you want sources? Books? A book might be too much material for ypu though if you struggle with a few paragraphs. There’s a documentary called Active Measures with John McCain and Hilary Clinton that shows these ties, that could be more of your pace.
It started with 4chan and bitcoin. I always wondered how the dumbest people I ever knew, literal meth addicts without teeth who can’t explain what a stock is, could do well at crypto, an obvious scam. Well, it wasn’t a scam, it was UBI for rightwing movements and pedophiles and the worst of society.
Memecoins are still doing it. That’s why they are there and named stuff like “Trump Maga.” They are funneling money around, and crypto is especially ideal for transferring money between countries.
I’m not writing that last part for you, it’s clear you refuse to learn anything from a woman. Sad for you, good luck when the right wingers take over AUS the same way they got us. And I do indeed know this is happening over there too, the women over there talk about it and 4B a lot. So it very well may become your problem soon too.
A message to my fellow guys: if you dislike this, guess what: it’s real easy to stop being the target of it. All you have to do is quit being a misogynistic, authoritarian piece of shit.
This isn’t targeted at just the shitty dudes. It’s no sex with any dudes period until they get their rights back.
I don’t see the difference. If someone doesn’t want to have sex with you, whatever the reason may be, then you accept that decision and move on. The inability to accept that would be a form of misogyny in my books. This may not be what was meant by the comment you responded to, but I interpret as: stop being misogynistic, not because that’ll make women want to have sex with you (though it might), but because it’s not your place to unilaterally decide who should have sex with you.
I never said it was my place. I gave up on romance years ago so this movement doesn’t even affect me. Although I do agree with them in principle. The purpose of my comment was only to correct the person I responded to who was misrepresenting the scope of the protest. They said the movement was specifically targeted at misogynists and it is not. It impacts all men (or at least those seeking a romantic relationship with a woman) regardless of their attitude towards women. There’s nothing to interpret about it. Men get nothing until they get their rights back. It’s not even really about misogyny.
To be clear, I mean “you” as in the general you, not you specifically. Didn’t mean for it to come off as an attack.
The inability to accept that would be a form of misogyny in my books.
Yes and further, if you (the reader, not the person I’m commenting to) are a man who is insistent women must go have sex with these men so they dont get mad - why don’t you go have sex with them? You have holes. It might even be safer for you. Why don’t you do it instead? And why haven’t you already been doing it if you think it’s so effective? Like if we need a sexy olive branch to convert people over to our side, why don’t you do it? And if you found that weird and distasteful- forcing yourself to have sex with people you are angry at and don’t want to because they are not attractive to you - no shit. That’s how we feel, you idiot.
For real, it’s astounding(not really) how much women appreciate not being treated and viewed like they are things to be owned and controlled
Yeah honestly as a guy I’m all for it. I absolutely do not blame women who do not want to have sex when they’re treated like 2nd class citizens who’s bodies are controlled by old, creepy men in Congress.
Respectfully, this isn’t on dudes.
Four and eight years ago young men overwhelmingly supported Bernie Sanders, and they were ridiculed for it. Dems even made up an epithet for it: Bernie Bros.
The perspective you’re showing in this reply is why Republicans won. You can’t make it very clear you don’t want young men to vote for you and then be surprised when they don’t.
What are you talking about? Bernie Bros are the diametric opposite of the problem. My comment is addressing all the men but them!
That is not the sentiment that Sanders supporters were receiving from Democrats in 2016 and 2020
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/5/10919754/bernie-bro-sexism
Robinson Meyer literally coined it as a pejorative
Rereading this article for the first time in a decade is insane
Yeah, I know what they think it means, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reclaim it.
Never mind.
I’m wasting my breath, but thank you for the discussion.
