- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
In the hours following former President Donald Trump’s election victory, Google searches related to 4B — a fringe South Korean feminist movement that made a name for itself in the mid to late 2010s — surged in the United States.
You can tell a protest is working when it causes people to elect the people you’re protesting against
I’m guessing you have a protest going against reading comprehension.
No, I have good reading comprehension relative to the average American. Do you want to try to explain to me how a protest that specifically targets progressive men is an effective way to get men to be more progressive?
“Just don’t be a bad guy and you won’t be the target!” This movement makes no distinction between conservative and progressive men, it is explicitly about absolute denial of sex, dating, marriage, and children.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% in favor of women not dating conservative men if they don’t want to. A movement that draws attention to the fact that women have the option of breaking up with their boyfriends and divorcing their husbands would be fantastic. A movement that specifically tries to deny relationships to the people that you’re trying to deradicalize is not that.
But go ahead and keep downvoting me. I’m trying to explain how we need to avoid losing more voters, and you’re sitting there repeating the same shit that lost us those voters in the first place.
If you truly want to understand the nature of this protest, it’s important to understand where women are coming from with this.
No matter one’s sex or gender, the dating process can be exhausting. Guys are exhausted from always making the first move and getting nowhere for the effort. Women are exhausted from sorting through all the men and messages, most of whom show zero interest in her as a person. Cis-men don’t see the regular dehumanization and sexualization that all women experience upon entry to the dating scene.
On dating apps, so, so many guys will ignore profiles and send low effort messages like, “Ur pretty. Wanna hook up?” Checking messages can elicit the same feeling you’d get from clearing out your spam folder one email at a time… except each spam message expects you to suck its dick. Some even threaten violence if rejected. When women leave dating sites and dating scenes, that’s the male behavior they’re opting to escape from.
Now we also have (or are bracing to have) our reproductive rights taken away. We see the stories of pregnant women being denied care, suffering, and dying. We don’t want to become a reproductive rights martyr just because a condom broke.
This protest may have a consequence that men don’t like, but expecting women to give in just so progressive men can get laid ignores the issues that sparked this protest in the first place.
It tells us everything. It says you don’t understand what we’re going through. It says you don’t care what we’re going through. It says you think your desire to have sex is worth more than our very lives.
In a way, you’re proving these women right. If your attitude is reflective of other so-called “progressive” men, then I can’t blame any woman who chooses to have nothing to do with any men at all.
I was with you right up until this point. My single status has no effect on my political beliefs, and I’m going to keep voting in favor of your rights, no matter how much you try to tell me that I don’t care about you.
I’m entirely in favor of women exercising bodily autonomy. As a movement for protecting women, this is great. As a movement for affecting political change, this is not. Sell it as the former, and I’m in favor. Sell it as the latter, and I’m going to argue.
There are more goals than some grand, over-arching “change.” On an extremely basic, self-preserving level, there is a goal of “not getting pregnant while living in a country that actively endangers the lives of pregnant women.”
If it brings about change that would be awesome. But regardless of that, by swearing off relationships and sex, we’re still not getting pregnant. Ergo, we are able to keep our bodily autonomy. Which, I guess I have to remind you, we would lose if we got pregnant.
Unless (non-sterilize) progressive men have some special sperm that doesn’t attempt to fertilize an egg, creating an exception based on beliefs would still put our lives at risk.
Did you read the part where I said
?
Yes. I also read the part of your previous post that said:
I also read the original article, which includes:
You seem to have the misconception that this movement is primarily about women doing something to make an impact on men, despite there being nothing in the source stating that. “A conservative political environment and a corrosion of reproductive rights” casts a wide net, but “revenge on men” or “motivating men” are both invariably going to be a lower priority than, oh say, “not dying from a miscarriage.” Makes sense, right?
There’s more to being a feminist ally than simply believing in a woman’s right to choose. I’d be more inclined to believe that you truly support us if you showed any sign of having considered anything that I’d said about why women are drawn to this idea, or how you may have been initially mistaken by assuming it’s being done just to target men. But alas.
I really don’t care if some random woman doesn’t believe that I truly support women. Especially when you read something like
and think you need to lecture me on how this movement would protect women and help them exercise their bodily autonomy
It even worked retroactively!
\S
You’re right, time will tell whether a protest that specifically targets the group that didn’t vote alongside us, and tries to make their life worse, will get them to vote alongside us next time. I’ll be holding my breath.
You’re right, women need to vow to Maga so that they will start respecting women.
I have reasons to believe you have been doing that for too long already
I need you to understand that not a single MAGA guy would be affected by this. 45% of women voted for Trump. MAGA guys have no problem finding women willing to date them. Progressive and centrist guys would. This isn’t about women bowing to MAGA, this is about finding an effective way to protest, which this is not.
Source needed. Here in the PNW, men who are leftwing and caring are so sought out that polyamory is acceptable and women literally recommend men to each other. Most of these men are “polysaturated,” meaning they are at a maximum of partners they can emotionally and physically fulfill.
The monogamous ones are all taken too. Conservative men actively hide or lie about their political affiliation to get dates, and this was such a widespread trend that they weren’t able to find dates they had to make the app The Right Stuff. Because they couldn’t find dates on TINDER. Lol.
What will happen is that the few women who don’t know or who do want to date, will date those few sweet progressive men, and there will be a lot more leftovers. Most women on apps are discarding matches until they find a perfect one anyway so this is already the standard in many ways, it will just be amplified.
Oh and something else you all won’t like, is that strippers and sex workers will start to become more exclusive and expensive as their clientele increases. Men are going to be increasingly mad about that as well. Only Fans already changed the business model of stripping a bit.
The PNW voted mostly for Harris. Conservative and apathetic men living there are not the men we need votes from.
Doesn’t this completely debunk the idea that denying relationships to conservative and apathetic men makes them more progressive? They’ll literally lie about their political beliefs and make apps to find conservative women before adjusting their beliefs to become more dateable
I’m starting to realize you think I’m a conservative. You’re making a lot of assumptions about me that aren’t necessarily true. Like, the idea that I’m allosexual. I couldn’t care less about the price of strippers and sex workers if I tried
Yeah and the Right Stuff doesn’t have any women. So it didn’t work out for them.
Yes, men will double down on abuse regardless of what women do, which is what I’ve actually been telling you repeatedly. Men will be abusive no matter what. Women denying or granting sex will not make men more or less conservative. I stated that repeatedly to you. I never said denying men sex will make them progressive and the point of the movement isn’t to manipulate men’s bodies, it’s to assert the rights to ours.
I get conservative men asking me all the time to be seen. Since 2020, it has been my explicit policy I will not see them. They cannot even pay me. Many many other women are doing the same. There is such a huge global market for US sex workers (which competes with Russian SW and thus espionage btw) that women in the US are getting some capital. Kim Kardashian is a good example.
You are a gender narcissist/fascist and misogynist. That makes you rightwing on topics relating to gender. Which is also why you are sex work phobic and refuse to see the importance of it.
There’s a reason the songs at strip clubs are reliable market indicators. There’s a reason activity at strip clubs directly correlates to dips in the stock market. And there are spies on payroll in many clubs across the world.
Literally lold at your last comment