This isn’t going to be popular, but part of the problem is not acknowledging that 42%. It’s fucking insulting, frankly. Plenty of women voted for the bear.
EDIT: In light of reports of tons of guys saying “your body my choice” and shit, I actually regret writing this & everything below.
Like, what the fuck, boys?
52% of white women voted for trump.
Chances are that many of the people crying about men voting trump, are part of a demographic that mostly voted trump.
Trump apparently won the popular vote anyway. Most of everyone who voted, voted trump. But let’s focus on men and then be surprised that young men who are very insecure about themselves anyway, feel attacked by the left and choose the right.
Please don’t get me confused, I don’t think it’s good this many men voted for The Stain. Also, 52% of WHITE women, but I bet if you combined ALL women, that number would drop dramatically.
My broader point is, IMO, that 42% never gets talked about so why would it grow, yeah?
Or, put another way, when I talk about women, who are my allies against the Patriarchy, I speak of why I like them (because I do, I LOVE women). They are resilient, strong, resourceful, grounded, etc, all the good stuff, and I try to include all women in that, they are my allies. I try NOT to focus on trad wives, manipulators, “gold diggers”, abusers, weirdos like MTG or Caitlyn Jenner , you know, bad people (and there are plenty).
But when I hear about men in the ally space, it feels like I hear all about how awful and dangerous we are and that’s it. And there’s ALWAYS this group of guys willing to go along with it and point and go “yeah, we totally suck! You guys saying we don’t are the real problem!” But, how is that motivating to anyone? It makes me upset, anyways. Maybe I’m just a big emotional baby, who knows?
Anyways, I’m blabbing. Bad habit of mine.
I would rather kill myself than vote for trump, who is a sexist, racist and fascist.
And I am with you. The boarder left is in denial that they are alienating especially young men with that behavior.
Meanwhile the right is actively recruiting young men. The name “Manosphere” for their recruitment cedes that ground to them with no resistance. “That’s just how men are, they hate women and vote for Trump because celebrities tell them to.” The right is actively selling their ideology to young men, the left isn’t.
The left has nothing for them, the American left used to be racist and sexist too, but then they expelled the dixiecrats.
Where do you think all that sexist racist scum came from? You think they wave confederate flags for no reason?
The left has TONS for men. You think men thrive under the patriarchy? Not being able to express emotions, not being able to express fraternal love, not being able to pursue “womanly” or"gay" passions. Men have rarely been more alone and less happy than they are now and left wing ideology can free them.
The left just doesn’t reach out like the right does. We could do a much better job.
The online left also doesn’t do a great job calling out sexism and other behaviours that uphold the patriarchy when it victimizes men. That’s pretty shameful and it’s hard for men to feel safe online in leftist spaces. In person I’ve never had a problem and people have been wonderful. But it’s a barrier to overcome that isn’t there on the right. The right says “you’re amazing because you’re a man, join us and regain your rightful amazing place that your deserve”. That’s a hard message when one side says you’re amazing as you are and the other, the side that prides itself of being open and accepting, is proud to tell you you’re worse than a bear and you shouldn’t feel hurt by that because it’s what you deserve.
America enforced an ideal for men that they have to be impossibly strong, stupid, brutish, and horny.
It’s only over the past 20 years that that started to break down, but large parts of the country are still infused with those values.
Everybody is acting so shocked because they lived in the nice parts of the country till now.
The left has TONS for men. You think men thrive under the patriarchy?
The fact that you’re using the word “patriarchy” already contradicts the first sentence, lol. Your whole paradigm rests on a foundation of “all the bad stuff is ultimately male-caused”. It’s your version of original sin, except that ironically there’s actually a path to redemption for religion’s original sin. Your version can’t be redeemed–you’ll always see males as the enemy. Your worldview literally requires it.
The left has TONS of one specific thing for men and boys: contempt.
while were demographic blaming you might as well start talking about latinos
An I demographic blaming?
Honest question, why so defensive? This post is demographic blaming, but am I supposed to go, “oh yeah I suck even though I am an ally.” Is that it? Is that what you want? Subservience? Or an honest conversation so we can move forward?
I just don’t know if its all that valuable. The real change is not that Trump got a bunch of extra votes, its that nobody came out to vote for Harris, the percentages largely are distorted on that basis. Latinos opted to not vote so trump got a higher percentage of latinos, possibly because of Harris’ right wing immigration arguments.
The vice presidential debate where walz sat there and agreed with vance was the truth of this election.
Women largely didnt come out to vote for Harris for some reason despite abortion ballot initiatives being largely successful. I’ve heard enough stories that its possible GOP largely just challenged every woman’s signature/voter status on every ballot they could across america.
I see what you’re saying, and I actually completely agree with a lot of the sentiment. I think the real issue is broader than simple demographics.
That said, if you feel like the obvious alienation men are feeling from allied spaces isn’t a big deal, well, I guess that’s something you can choose to ignore at your own peril. I don’t think it’s a good idea, but I’m just some stupid dude.
That problem seems like it could solve itself…
Face eating leopard party hungers…
Nobody hates women like other women.
I could not disagree more. There’s a lot of dudes who really, REALLY hate women. I mean, that should be self evident.
Also, to be clear, there’s very good, reasons for folks to be skeptical about inviting men into allied spaces. It’s complex. People are complex.
I mean, I’m out. Doesn’t matter what I do or how I vote I’m going to be called the enemy by the left anyway. They are adamant that I am their enemy and that they are mine. So that’s how it’s gonna be.
Lol “I don’t want to be a right wing asshole, I’m only doing this because you hurt my feelings”
Dude that’s the weakest thing I’ve ever heard. Being in the left means constantly fighting and being attacked by other leftists for being the wrong kind of leftist. That’s what it takes to be on the left and you never had it, it’s what the kids call a skill issue.
Go be a right wing asshole all you want but don’t pretend you didn’t want it all along!
Throw that on the pile of “See what I mean?”
Being in the left means constantly fighting and being attacked by other leftists for being the wrong kind of leftist.
Yes, I’ve noticed the complete lack of civility, and thus a complete lack of teamwork, and thus an utter inability to accomplish goals. “The Left” doesn’t get shit done, so what’s the point of tolerating the infighting?
You come talk to me when you’ve figured out how to get along, work as a team, and are willing to court centrists into supporting you. And not a minute before. If you survive whatever’s next.
The fighting ensures we all stay intellectually honest. It’s a competitive market of ideas that creates positive, progressive ideology. The fighting is also internal, when one of us is fighting the systems that oppress us we all line up to help in solidarity.
Miss my with your pseudosuperiority and go crawl into whatever hateful right wing hole you call home.
See? I’m the enemy no matter what I do.
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How would you know it’s 52%? Isn’t voting anonymous?
How do they know that men voted for trump?
Exit polls.
https://www.statista.com/chart/33408/female-male-us-voters-exit-polls/
white women voted trump, POC voted Kamala, but minority does mean less
I’m not familiar with the concept of an exit poll. I will look it up.
An exit poll is conducted after a voter exits the voting booth. It’s conducted by a private organization (usually either a news organization or someone working in collaboration with a news organization) and polls people to find out how they voted. The exit poll is voluntary.
Organizations can then categorize that info based on age, gender, race, area where they voted, and other details. News organizations can then use that info (along with a bunch of other data, including polls conducted leading up to the day of the election) to extrapolate who will win an election in a given area. Typically, despite being somewhat limited in their scope (not everyone at every polling location nationwide is polled), the exit polls are usually reflective of the actual election polls.
Campaign organizers for the next election can also use the data to help figure out their strategies for the next election. For a general example (I came up with it off the top of my head), “We failed to gain the aged 60+ black male vote in this state. We need to study how to appeal to them better in the next election.”
Fun Fact: The actual official votes actually take days to count. So these and other types of election polls really help news organizations predict the results even just a few hours after the election polls close, and they’re rarely wrong. Sometimes, they’re even able to call an election the minute the polls in that area close*. These news organizations often each crunch their own numbers, too, so they don’t necessarily all rely on each other’s data.
*I should note that each state has its own rules about how and when they release election results. Often, to avoid influencing voters who haven’t voted yet, they won’t release results (including results from early voting) until polls in the entire state have closed. This is usually the case with news organizations announcing their predictions, too. That’s why some news organizations are able to immediately predict some races as soon as the polls close.
Why do you accept that young men voted for Trump. But when you’re told, using the same source of data, that white women did too suddenly you’re all questions?
In my country voting is anonymous, how would anyone know based on their sex or color or whatever how anyone voted. Here, your vote is considered private so asking a person how they voted as they walk out the polling station is just a foreign concept to me.
What’s even weirder is how you came to your conclusions. You really have to explain the mental gymnastics you used, because you’re really coming out of nowhere.
Hey, I think his point is rather simple and don’t require much mental gymnastics, if you are a little generous in reading it by ignoring how it is phrased.
His thought process is,
You saw the meme and there is no comment or expression by you towards how they knew men voted for trump. You seemingly just accepted it but when I express the 52% statement, you correctly doubted my words and expressed interest in how people would know. Why did the potentially photoshopped screenshot from some random news channel with similar information, didn’t trigger the same response in you?
Ofc it is flawed to assume that you weren’t wondering about that when looking at the meme. For all everyone else knows, you saw me as someone who could tell you as I was presenting similar information. So their hostility wasn’t proper. But the core of the question might be interesting for yourself, which is why I try to communicate it better.
If you weren’t wondering about the method of obtaining the data in the meme, you might want to reflect on why.
young men who are very insecure about themselves anyway
Nice anti-masculine sentiment. No wonder they voted Trump. You guys don’t hide your disdain as well as you think you do.
feel attacked by the left and choose the right.
Lol I wonder why…
As a guy who used to be a young man and with a lot of young men as friends, retrospectively yeah, most issues were based in insecurities. You really want to be an adult and you feel like you should be one but you don’t know how to be one. You go out and want to meet girls and you are scared of the rejection.
You can act like that is “anti-masculine” sentiment but it isn’t. It is an understanding of humans.
Just as a sidenote, based on my experience every young adult is struggling with insecurities.
Every young adult is struggling with insecurities.
This is a totally different statement.
You can act like that is “anti-masculine” sentiment but it isn’t
Saying men are insecure when it’s the case across the board means it’s fair game to call you out. It sounds like fundamentally we don’t disagree though.
As a father of a daughter?
Those men need to go fuck themselves and die.
I am horrified my daughter might have to share a world with that complete trash.
Boooo. As a father of boys and girls it’s a HARD world for both right now. Completely different fights but let me tell you that my boys are suffering as much as my girls due to patriarchal expectations for their behaviours and the consequences of not complying.
The patriarchy is the problem, not boys. Don’t let your fears push you to hatred of a whole group of people that are just trying their best to be good people. It’s hard for young boys to resist the messages of the patriarchy, that was half the message in the Barbie movie. We can hate the behaviours without hating boys. We can solve the problem by tackling boys and men’s issues caused by the patriarchy and dismantle it together. We can’t dismantle the patriarchy by alienating, scapegoating, and allowing ourselves to hate so much of the population.
It’s hard for young boys to resist the messages of the patriarchy
Yes, it is, which is why we have to shout that those messages are wrong.
Or better we go back to being quiet and let the old conditions continue, you know, just to make things easier on everyone?
We have to alienate them, alienating is defined as disconnecting, they must be alienated from what you call ‘the patriarchy’, and I consider a dysfunctional pseudo-masculine culture.
I was just a nerd growing up, and bullied pretty much constantly, it wasn’t easy for me either, life is hard sometimes, but if we solve this properly now nobody will have to deal with it again in the future, and it’s destroying the lives of boys and girls.
Dude if you’re on the left and you alienate boys and men you’re not alienating them from the patriarchy. You’re alienating them from the LEFT.
The patriarchy does it’s own alienating by being shitty to them by forcing them into toxic ideals masculinity and cutting them off from their humanity. We have to provide a welcoming community. We PRIDE OURSELVES on providing a welcoming community for victims of the patriarchy. For some reason some people on the left think that just because the patriarchy is topped by a small group of men that the rest of the men can’t be victims or don’t otherwise deserve a welcoming space where they can work on dismantling the patriarchy with us.
We’re destroying the pyramid from the bottom. We can only destroy the systems of oppression that affect US. If men don’t do their share we’ll never get to the people at the top. They’ll always be out of reach.
I never hid my disdain.
Then don’t be surprised when 50% of the population acts accordingly.
God, the whole of Lemmy is such a meme right now; the majority of women voted Trump as well!
Lmao!..
The majority of White women voted for him 53% to 45% (not sure what percent of those are in the evangelical christian demographic).
Women overall voted against him 53% to 45%. Funny how those numbers were the exact opposite. Anyway it was a smaller margin than Dems were hoping/expecting from women.
source: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls
I think the ones who didn’t vote for Harris are desperately rationalizing to blame Trump on somebody besides themselves.
no, 20 million Americans withheld their votes.
that greasy orange fuck actually lost votes.
2020 had some of the easiest voting rules in US history, with universal no excuse mail in.
Democrats were more likely to mail in votes than Republicans. So (largely Republican) states cracked down on mail in voting shortly after the election.
The participation plunge you’re seeing is largely the result of that decision
Turnout was still pretty high compared to historic numbers.
So far second highest recorded turn out and it will be weeks for the final number. Keep in mind spoiled ballots will get added at some point (to the turnout count not to actually count)
Yeah but only 39% of bears voted Trump.
ya, but what if you pretend that women are some monolithic left-wing force that totally would take the bear, instead of people? the bear v. man is literally a left wing bubble thing.
Its weird that the same group of people are ignoring women’s ability of independent thoughts and actions are the same ones saying (not unreasonably) the other side is dehumanizing women.
Not true, but nearly half of them did
the majority of women voted Trump as well!
White men and women specifically
Mine is one race you could probably justify a hate crime on.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah no. Either Musk or Putin learned how to hack without detection. It’s WHOLLY unlikely that majorities of women were polled, a gender gap was polled, and somehow that all magically disappeared. That is a STRONG indicator of hacking.
Either you don’t understand what you’re replying to or you don’t understand statistics… Or you don’t understand a lot of things.
So I guess you voted for Trump
Hah, are you serious…?
Why would you use the word meme in your analysis if your problem is that the content is meme-like
Because it’s like a meme… what?
it feels like you’re doing the thing that you’re complaining about
WHITE WOMEN CHOSE THE DUDE THIS ELECTION AND THE DUDE WAS TRUMP
Yeah, but there are a LOT of white women in the south.
Absentee ballots are cool and all, I’m sure southern husbands and fathers love being able to ‘check everyone voted properly’.
I get your larger points, but do you really believe millions of women had their vote “verified” by their brother or husband??
I 100% guarantee it.
Understand dominionism, those men think they’re doing their job sheparding their flock.
These are the same chucklefucks who still do purity rings and dad-daughter “promise” dances, yeah the attitude of women as property still exists in large swaths of this country
Why didn’t they do this in 2020?
The religious wacko part or the voting? The former has been going on for a loooong time, the latter I think is a combo of voter apathy, intense propaganda and the result of decades of planning by conservatives who hated having to abandon Deutchsland for Argentina
You guys need to quit watching so much TV.
In related news:
The sensational headline you sought out doesn’t actually describe what these laws are in place for (but, hey, that’s why you lot always go looking for sensation headlines! Nobody ever reads what’s actually going on anyway!)
Oh I see. You just hate that men get any kind of thought in cases of pregnancy during divorce.
Women should be allowed to get pregnant (by her husband or otherwise) then divorce the asshole and claim alimony and child support based on their word alone!!
All of these laws are in place to give the husband at least a TINY chance to present a case for themselves. Even then, courts generally side with women anyway, so it usually doesn’t matter.
But whatever, FUCK THOSE MEN!! THEY SHOULD ALL GO TO HELL AND PAY ME MY MONEY!!!
but are those women so feeble that they just did what they were told? In PA MI WI??? This reeks of hacked elections.
I really think you underestimate the frequency of rural domestic abuse.
You know, I read shit like this and even though they had their fuckups, I recognize my parents did some major things right. We had family voting might, amicably discussed the candidates and issues, and then they showed us you could knowingly vote differently and still be a loving family.
Open fascists weren’t on our ballots until recently which made disagreement significantly more palatable. Talking about the rest of the ballot tho, honestly on some measures I don’t care that much and others in my family do. I’ll gladly lend my voice/vote on issues my family cares about if they’ll do the same for me (and they have).
Open fascists weren’t on our ballots until recently
Nixon was fash af. Reagan wasn’t much better. The white Christian nationalism of the modern conservative movement has been around for a long time
Thays why I have never voted for a republican and I never will.
“My house my votes”
Check the statistics for white women :)
Yeah, i think i’m swearing off white women too. It would be tough because i’m white as fuck but i’m considering it.
When Harris was nominated, I told a friend of mine that my biggest fear was it was going to energize racists and sexists because she was black and a woman. I though she was great candidate, but the level of racism and sexism in this county is beyond insane.
Well it’s a good thing your worries were unfounded then because Trump got 72 million votes in 2020, and as of right now he’s got those same 72 million votes in 2024. 10 million or so democrats sat out this election compared to 2020 and that’s why Harris lost.
He should have lost a few million considering the sheer number of his supporters that earned Herman Cain awards.
Maybe we’re a bit more racist and sexist than people are willing to admit?
Or maybe it’s not a simple answer? Have you considered actually thinking about what happened instead of looking for a zinger headline?
Either that or states aren’t doing mail in voting since we’re not in the middle of a pandemic, so democrats had to work and didn’t get a chance to vote.
It was actually because they gaslit people into believing that Biden was a competent candidate until like 3 months before the damn election.
THEN didn’t even hold a primary.
And then let Kamala Harris completely train wreck the campaign and say shit like 18-24 year olds were stupid (notice how most of those votes from men for trump were around that age?) And sure, the video was taken out of context but she did say it and these dumb fucks didn’t care what the context was when they see that clip droning on their TikToks and shit.
America does have a racism and sexism problem but to tell yourself that that is the only reason she lost this election would be lying to yourself in a very major way.
I did vote for her too, btw. First time I ever voted. But Jesus Christ the democrats just seem like they don’t want to win at this point.
Thankfully it looks like that did not happen. So far Trump got less votes than he did in 2020. It’s just that Harris did not manage to get the democratic voter base off the couch.
People keep saying this but they haven’t finished counting the votes. In California alone only 55% of votes were counted and he had 4,000,000+ votes there. The remaining votes could easily put him past his 2020 total.
You want this to be true because it’s a simple explanation, just like Republicans. Stop being so immature and look at the actual dogshit platform she ran on and think again. You just defined confirmation bias in your comment. Doesn’t make it true
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The “man or bear in the woods” question is obvious ragebait. Thinking people don’t entertain hyperbolic hypotheticals that are proposed to sow divisive rhetoric.
The gender war is a psy-op proxy for the class war.
::: To be clear, I’m a proponent of market-socialism economically who wants a functional federal republic like we’re supposed to have on paper. I am not a “tankie”, nor do I want anything to do with them.
When I say “class war”, I say we fight it with the ballot, and a gun if it gets ugly to the point of no recourse (that is still far away, thankfully).
I mean, what the fuck are people gonna do against Predator drones with Hellfires? Be vaporized as cannon fodder? We’d be gullible rubes for the whims of the “enlightened LeAdErS of the People’s Revolution”, that’s what. :::
Pretty much.
In hiking groups, certain people bring it up, and it’s the kind of people you expect.
The rest of us just go hiking
There’s also a TON left unsaid in it. Is the man armed? are you armed? Is it a hiking path? Is it the middle of the forest? Are you camping or just walking? what kinda bear? is the bear just walking or is it attacking?
You’re overthinking it; those questions are totally irrelevant to the point. Though, to be fair, the question doesn’t exactly specify this at face value.
It’s really just a thought experiment: would you rather take your chances, alone, with a random bear/man in the woods? You don’t get a weapon. You dont get to choose which man or which bear, or what they do. It’s a gamble.
If I’m in the woods, it’s because I don’t need nor want human interaction. Please pick the bear and leave me the fuck alone thanks.
I think in this situation it is probably more important to look into why more than half the population chose Trump.
Probably because most voters want someone that reminds them of their dad as the President.
wants to have sex with them?
Or discourse like that could be why young men are choosing the right.
They’re so wrong to do so in such a vindictive way.
… but that doesn’t mean they’re not doing it. People are petty, including men.
I’m honestly not sure it’s even vindictive. Maybe in some cases, it’s a big complicated issue.
We get such different news in the age of algorithms, they may not even see it as vindictive. I think it’s easy to pull back from a group that paints your identity as a villain, and I think that’s likely some of it.
True. The stereotype is jilted incels but that’s probably not always the case.
They are choosing it because Theo Von / Shane Gillis / Tony Hinchcilff / Dana White / Joe Rogan / UFC / Russian propaganda / random MAGA streamers.
All of whom thrive on stuff like man vs bear discourse
I think it’s too complex to attribute to one thing, I think you’re right that the alt right social media pipeline is real and an issue.
I’m just saying I understand not identifying with a group who trash an identity a person belongs to. They just disengage. Nobody likes being put into a box that paints them as a villain.
Just my opinion of course, the left (as a social group) can examine the current discourse and try to adjust, maybe like framing it as a class struggle or a liberty struggle, or continue being divisive and risk being overridden.
Trump learned how to win friends and influence people from Carnegie. People just want to feel heard, doesn’t matter what you say back to them. It’s essentially slight-of-hand, but for feelings and emotions.
All those other guys know a cashcow when they see one.
That seems bang on average for the entire country. If anything that suggests to me that men in that age group are less susceptible to trumps influence since other age ranges of men were in the 60s and 70s
I mean, it sounds to me like men also chose the bear. Why did they choose the bear, is it because they’re stupid? Probably not, they likely just thought their odds were better with the bear.
Dropping the metaphor, and looking in the cold light of day, those young men saw a better future under Trumpler than Harris. Articles signaled this well before, and nothing was done to address it.
Will their future be better - probably not. Can they be made to think their future is better, that’s a tough one. Remember, you can trick one group of people into thinking they have more rights by stripping the rights of those around them.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Cool, now do women!
“Boomers are turning this country to shit!”
GenX:
Wish this would be adjusted for age. Obviously someone who had more time to accumulate wealth will have more wealth. The real question is how much wealth does each generation have at the same age.
Then why Silent has so little?
It’s extremely simple. How many people are alive born before 1946? Not many compared to the other generations. Their wealth went to their boomer children.
I am working off of one bar and have no electricity but this research has been done. I think pew has it, but it might be at ITAR
It also matters at the time, as that’s a form of power. Guess who can donate seriously to political campaigns, for example.
True. Question is a bit how much wealth is in things and how much in money - some boomer owning a nice house and a vacation home is very wealthy, but might not necessarily have the liquidity to donate if they live on some relatively small pension.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1376620/wealth-distribution-for-the-us/
(and time, don’t forget time)
Well this here GenXer wishes he could have some of that wealth. Unless ‘have a mortgage’ constitutes wealth.
Mortgage? No. Equity in a house? Yes.
Equity in a house is not all that helpful when the house is in an undesirable town in an undesirable state.
My point is just that a mortgage is debt while equity is an asset, so I don’t think you should consider a mortgage wealth.
It actually does. The amount paid off at least, since the property is the wealth.
Considering how little we’re going to get back when we sell it within the next few months before fleeing to the UK, I would say that I don’t think it’s wealth.
Isn’t the UK politics pretty similar to US?
This is why I’ve been saying that we can’t expect the population to simply age out of conservatism. If that worked, it would have happened generations ago. Perhaps as far back as “cooking food over fire is making kids these days weak”.
Well that shows a 47-49 split instead of the 42-53 split originally posted for 18-29 men.
Two points vs 11 points. Exit polls are still just polls, prone to some hefty ranges.
Just give up humans, you have no future, you are not viable as a species.
The elusive .ml concurrence
That is women literally choosing the bear (by not voting or who voted Trump, same thing).
Trump isn’t the bear you dolt. He’s the guy in the meme.
That meme is kind of a engramatic shitshow. We should stop referencing it.
What is everyone talking about?
Well, there’s still 42% who voted for Harris. What’s wrong with them?
Nothing is wrong with them, but I get not wanting to gamble with thos odds.
Especially when, according to the national park service, “when bear encounters do happen, they are most often nonviolent”. So if you had to gamble…
Are you saying that theres >42% chance a bear will be on your side in the wilderness then?
That makes no sense. By all arguments taking “a man” is prolly the far better choice anyways, people are just stupid.
There’s a 100% chance that “the bear” is a fucking bear
Theres at least a decent chance “a random man” is an asset to survival and your odds of success go up instead of down…
There’s no scenario where choosing “the bear” improves your odds of success >_>;
Unless the bear is starving, rabid or you are between it and its cubs, there is a 99% chance that the bear will just leave you alone, and probably run away.
I’m guessing that’s not as high a percentage when it comes to men considering statistics involving rape and murder.
So yeah, I’d say that there are a lot of scenarios where choosing the bear improves your odds of success.
It’s like people think there are hundreds of thousands of bear maulings ever year or something…
You’re changing the hypothetical into something it’s not. “Odds of success” are a weird thing to think about when it’s just a walk in the woods.
The scenario is you are lost in the woods and you either have to choose between a wild bear, or a random man.
Many types of bears won’t run away, they will actively attack you. Some will run, but many will simply tear you limb from limb just cuz.
I haven’t seen a version that says lost in the woods, just alone. Either way though, you can see it as saying they’d take a chance of being mauled over a chance of being raped.
And how would you react to if a TERF posted the same thing but changed it to a trans woman instead of a man?
Still a woman posting about her fear of being raped.
But now you maybe see how fucking awful ot sounds, right? How it makes you sound super bigoted, perhaps?
No, I’m definitely not saying that I know the odds of a bear attack, which is why my quote was “most often” and not “>42%”.
What I am saying is 14.8% of, or roughly 1 out of every 6, women in America has been raped. Worse yet, between the ages of 16-24, they are 3-4 times more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted. So in general, women have a very real fear of being alone and unguarded around men, many suffering from PTSD from encounters while being left alone with a man.
Knowing that you have a 1 in 6 (or worse depending on age) chance to be raped in your lifetime is… bad odds. So it’s understandable that being alone with a man actually scares them more than a bear, regardless of the statistical odds of a bear attack (which again, are pretty low anyways).
And seeing that 56% of men aged 18-29 voted for a convicted sex offender, probable statutory rapist, “grab 'em by the pussy” enthusiast, who pushed back women’s rights, that means over half the men in that demographic don’t think these are “hills to die on”. So now women have a very real fear, and/or have actually been raped, and all these men are voting like their fears and rights don’t matter… yep, I get choosing the bear.
So yeah, we can argue until we are blue in the face about survival odds, but we would be missing the whole point of the discussion if we did.
Google the word hyperbole, you fucking moron. Nobody can be this dumb.
It’s a stupid hyperbole that just says “I’ve never actually seen a bear up close”
It makes women sound stupid and naive, any woman who has actually encountered a bear up close will go “fuck no, a bear will fuck you up”
Bears will literally tear your limbs off just cuz, with little effort. You are nothing more than a ragdoll to them. They have thousands of pounds on you, and they can run twice as fast as you.
No person who actually knows wtf a bear us like would ever choose the bear.
The hyperbole instead just sends a message of “women are stupid” which shouldn’t be true, I would hope the average woman is smart enough to know that while being alone with a man is risky, a fucking bear is still way way worse.
It makes women sound stupid
No. But this your comment makes you sound stupid.
On top of being stupid, you obviously still don’t understand what hyperbole is.
No, I know what it is. Hyperbole when taken too far is just a fancy way to dress up sexism/racism.
The litmus test here is so easy.
Replace “man” with “black man” and repeat the phrase, tell me if it’s still something you’d say out loud amongst friends or not.
Suddenly doesn’t sound so paletteble does it? Maybe sounds kinda racist?
Literally anytime you wanna try and argue if a phrase maybe is problematic, and you wanna try and argue that because the subject is “men” makes it lt count, just change it to “black men” and double check it didn’t suddenly become super fuckin racist sounding.
If it did, it always was sexist.
Either you are one of the best trolls I ever met, or you forgot to take your pills. Don’t bother to reply to this, you are on my block list now.
Yeah the overwhelming majority of woman interactions with men is non violent.
Very true, but the overwhelming majority of women interact with men overwhelmingly frequently compared to bears.
Almost as if the whole thing is a light hearted way of drawing attention to a very real fear women live with every day, that stats posted above bear (get it?) witness to.
Plus, if we are being pedantic, it’s not “interactions with men”. It’s “would you, as a woman, feel safer encountering a man or a bear when you are alone in the woods”.
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If we are talking about odds, I’d rather run into a bear than any human being in the woods regardless of skin color because humans kill humans in an exponentially greater number than bears kill humans.
So sure. I’d rather run into a bear than a black person in the woods. Or a white person. Or a brown person. Or even a blue person. And you do have a small chance running into one of the blue ones in one area that’s bear country.
Oh I thought you were talking about smurfs and not the Fugates and I’m delighted when I see smurfs. It means the drugs are working
This is wrong reasoning though. The only reason why bears kill less humans is because like you say, less bears interact with humans. But if you go with the premise of putting a bear and a human next to each other, then a bear is always more dangerous.
It’s like saying ingesting cyanide kills less people than car accidents. That doesn’t mean ingesting cyanide is less dangerous than driving a car.
I thought we were talking about odds?
Why did you bring up odds if this was about the “right” reasoning?
What’s a “black prison”? Is that like an off-the-books CIA site where they keep people who won’t be found? I’d definitely take the bear, the CIA would probably torture me to get me to tell them how I found their black prison.
Any woman who says “the bear” honestly, I have to assume" has never once actually encountered a bear in the woods.
Prolly has had extremely few encounters with anything in the woods.
People hang out on trails all the time, and are alone with another stranger on the trails extremely often, and the extremely vast majority of those interactions are overwhelming positive in all configurations. The vast majority of humans are helpful at worst, for all genders.
People like to help other people out.
Yes, I would vastly prefer to encounter a gun toting right wing MAGA nut on the trail than a fucking bear, thats not even a hard question to answer, its a fucking bear.
Im left wing by a long shot but I still know that even the average right wing MAGA nut is actually prolly still gonna be, on average, helpful and/or friendly, or maybe just cold and indifferent towards me, out in the wilderness.
Hell I’d actually honestly say this scenario is one of the few times I’d choose a MAGA right wing nut over a fellow left leaning fellow.
I love my fellow liberals but I also have to acknowledge the vast majority of us are city slickers, many many of which prolly couldnt even start a fire if their life depended on it (cuz its just not a thing that matters in the city)
Meanwhile the odds the random selected MAGA right wing gun nut prolly shows up with hunting equipment and knows how to do shit like make a lean to and skin a rabbit.
If I got to pick between the two, I’d choose the gun nut cuz Id rather risk surviving with a gun nut than dying with a fellow city slicker, love yeah all but like, we aint fuckin surviving in the woods long, thats just a fact lol.
Edit:
If you seriously think this sort of statement is okay to make, I dare you to replace “man” with “black man” and go post it to prove how it’s totally not a bigoted statement
Cuz any argument you try and make about “man” in this statement should hold water even if you change it to “black man” without suddenly sounding super fuckin racist.
Any woman who says “the bear” honestly, I have to assume" has never once actually encountered a bear in the woods.
i have to assume you never were a woman… is that correct assumption, smartass?
Don’t get me wrong, in your situation, where you are man alone in the wilderness, meeting another person is really not so terrifying of a concept. Bears aren’t likely to attack and maul you tbh, but neither is the “gun nut” in your hypothetical.
This isn’t what women are talking about when they say “I’d choose the bear”. They are actually referencing a genuine fear many of them have being alone around men. Reportedly 14.8%, or roughly 1 out of every 6, women in America has been raped. And between the ages of 16-24, they are 3-4 times more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted. Meaning these fears are at their peak during formative years.
We could argue till we are blue in the face over which is more likely to attack, a bear or stranger in the woods, but it would be completely missing the point of the discussion.
Many women have genuine fears and/or PTSD regarding being alone with men, and so when asked what they would feel safer encountering alone in the woods, they choose the bear. Even if you believe their choice is the “wrong one”, please try to understand what they are trying to communicate by making it.
They are actually referencing a genuine fear many of them have being alone around men.
It still makes you sound stupid, tbh, when you admit you haven’t a clue how much more threatening a fucking bear is.
A man, no matter how scary, isn’t going to tear your fucking arms off with one hand lol
It demonstrates a degree of naivety that you truly have never actually seen a bear in person.
It just makes the person sound stupid.
At least pick an animal that is less of an instant threat. Like a cougar.
A bear will literally reduce you to multiple pieces without a second thought, and with barely any effort. It’s a bear
To be honest, being so unable to grasp the point being made makes you sound… stupid tbh. But I don’t actually think you are stupid, so I assume you are just really dug in deep with how much “choose the bear” annoys you (maybe because you are offended on behalf of men, or on behalf of bears?).
So you want to call it stupid instead of just being willing to acknowledge “choosing the bear” is a polite way of saying “men assault women at such a high rate that women are genuinely terrified to be alone with them.” And honestly, it demonstrates a degree of naivety that you have never truly experienced the constant threat of sexual assault for you to consistently think this was ever about bears.
If only it were possible to make points without inventing goofy and easily ridiculed scenarios.
I mean… it is tho innit? But when it comes to topics that people have actual PTSD over, sometimes inventing goofy scenarios makes the hard conversations easier.
So maybe the problem isn’t the goofy scenario, but the fact that people feel the need to ridicule rape and sexual assault fears regardless of how they are presented?
Yet the majority of violent interactions women experience come from men
Yeah because women don’t interact with several bears on a daily basis you jack ass
You’re sure doing your part to make sure women want to interact with you. I bet you’ve convinced most of them that throwing a fit and calling people names when you don’t get your way makes you the best guy.
“the overwhelming majority of these m&ms are not poisonous.”
mmm sounds delicious
You do, of course, realise that argument was originally concocted to oppose immigration?
no, I made it up because it’s an easy analogy. but my argument is still different on two fronts.
first, the claim is absolute when it should be comparative. documented immigrants commit less crime than citizens. undocumented immigrants even less than them.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014704117
men on the other hand commit crime in ridiculously higher rates than women, and even disregarding that, men commit more serious crimes than women. technically more than bears too.
second, my argument isn’t about opposing men, so it’s not even comparable to the opposing immigration argument. it’s about the fact that men pose a real threat and maybe it’s appropriate to take action to address that rather than get defensive about it.
No, you did not make it up. This article is from 2016. This one is from 2014.
It was a veil for bigotry when Trump said it, it’s a veil for bigotry now. Doing the “FBI crime stats stats but for men” is not the argument you think it is.
I didn’t say I invented it. I said I made it up. it’s not that wild of an analogy to be impossible to come up with it independently. i was thinking of grains and then remembered an old reddit post about putting skittles in an m&ms bowl.
wow they probably stole that too, since it’s such a crazy original idea that no two people can think of it.
again, “FBI crime stats but for men” is not a good critique because again, it’s not comparable to black people. unless you think the police unfairly favor immigrants, especially undocumented immigrants. women do get more lenient sentences but that wasn’t my argument.
if you have any evidence that women commit as many and as serious crimes as men please share. or if you think men are historically oppressed and financially disadvantaged as context to their crime stats, I’d like to hear that.
pointing at vague similarities to other arguments when they are nothing like each other won’t cut it.
Idk, women also do dumb violent shit, guess everyone should avoid everybody? Since some humans, regardless of their background, are toxic?
Life is risk. Not taking any risk is choosing not to live. It’s relatively easy to figure out who’s a shithead, of course you should be wary of people, but everyone has to filter out other shitty people constantly, it’s not suddenly some new thing because Trumpers exist.
oh my god this is all lives matter all over again
They one poisonous m&m in the factory is better than this chainsaw will to your face off, but at least you were safe from potentially being poisoned
hwut
Are you OK?
Overwhelming majority of women interactions with men is not alone in the forest - and that was the setting of this exercise.
Of course I’d rather see a man in crowded office space than a bear, stranded alone in a forest however, math changes.I’m about to have a violent interaction…
Please don’t hurt a woman for no reason
Only if they voted for trump
Political violence has only led to good things throughout history
Political violence has sometimes led to good things
What if they’re at the receiving end?
Ok 42% of men voted for your rights. Most violent crime, SA, and murder is done by men. Potentially in the near future you can’t escape a marriage without a “good” reason and you can’t abort a forced pregnancy.
Bears. Potentially murder and maul you. Majority of bear to human interactions are non violent and happens numerically wise less than Bears. You interact with men more than Bears. By a million times. The interactions with a male could be worse. Than just killed or hurt severally. Which is the only thing you get from a bear.Yes not all men but most men don’t support your rights and crimes are mostly men. Bear impacts are better outcomes than a bad man impacts
I’ve HEARD a lot of women talk about how they’d rather be with a bear. I haven’t actually SEEN any leaving society to go live in the woods with a bear. Nor have I seen many of the men supporting them cut off their testicles and dress as bears.
Now, that leaves me in a pickle. Should I conclude a lot of women are hypocrites and a lot of men are just white knighting, since none of them are actually putting their money where their mouth is? Should I begin questioning if all women talk out of their ass and only take their input to be true if they provide signed statements, ideally notarized?
Nah. Probably not. I’m gonna choose to believe #notAllWomen lie. Just, like, the ones talking about bears.
If no woman will consent to a guy like that, he’ll just vote for the candidate who promises to abolish consent
