I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
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I think this page gives some good info on Neopronouns for those who might not be entirely in the know about them.
My only problem is when i use singular they them for someone and they have a problem with it. I speak hungarian natively which has no grammatical gender nor gendered pronouns and it makes so much more sense. The whole thing about gender neutral language doesnt exist. But what makes me mad is that other languages that have genders solved it while english is still messing around and every time i use singular they or dude/guy as gender neutral, someone with neopronouns or a right winger has to point out how im incorrect. This is of course not pointed at those who use neopronouns, just as someone who speaks a language where pronouns dont matter it feels kinda useless.
You’re allowed to make mistakes and find it difficult. You’re not allowed to decide that you’re not even going to try. If you are at that point, your options are to get it right, or to not engage with the person in question.
yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao
that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear
Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\
thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.
imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:
the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.
You disgust me.Damn, it’s really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I’m not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it’s no where near the first time I’ve seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I’ve seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don’t agree that using “gender” in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that’s not really for me to decide.
Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I’ve blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It’s not really fun anymore.
it’s raw, and it’s real, and i’m SO glad you typed it out because it’s eloquating some shit that’s been bouncing around my head all nebulous and untouchable like.
and yeah pugjesus is a punk ass. mf has more than triple dipped on being an asshole in just the past 24 hours. anyone who isn’t already in that particular brand of echo chamber would be best off keeping as far away as possible, those kinda toxins are bad for the spirit :/
To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.
/s
I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.
i really oughta block that whole comm. there’s something to be said for the value of dissenting opinions, but until they raise a point that isn’t “weird pronouns bad” there’s not a lot there for anyone outside the echo chamber.
i’m starting to think even trying to argue the logic is just an exercise in validating their bullshit when your comments all get dogpiled.
My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they’ve caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
And now, a lot of those trolls that use pronouns to troll lemmy are a protected class. It’ll only get worse from here.
I’m in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
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As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
is there a definitive list of pronouns
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It’s just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They’re essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what’s considered women’s work (cooking) and men’s work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You’re right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You’re unfortunately entirely correct that it’s a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that’s its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don’t use it online, the they effectively don’t get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It’s out of desperation to be validated in some way. It’s a bummer, but I get it. I’m lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don’t use my name online. But I’m absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
is there a definitive list of pronouns?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
This is a good strategy :)
once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
You sound like you’ve got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It’s not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you’re not actively being a dickhead you probably don’t have too much to worry about on that front.
100%.
You don’t get to decide if another person’s identity is valid or not. That’s literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they’re called and how to correctly refer to them.
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I’ve literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I’m including my own community I run outside of lemmy.
Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it’s incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.
take note bluesky this is how to build trust and safety 💙
and it’s another reason why i love it here 💞
humans are not perfect so both sides could be wrong or both correct or some mix so idk im being hypothetical so i expect to be incorrect
Thank you.
I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like “umm actually you can’t police my speech and umm pronoun bad” and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.
the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.
Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks’ behavior wasn’t steeped in hatred
Won’t somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?
They’re the real oppressed!
pet pet
Ada is legit one of the best moderators I’ve seen in my 25 years on the internet.
The admin’s chosen examples, in this thread, include demanding people use a slur, if that’s what some rando insists you insert, instead of the “they” that should work for any human being.
It’s really fucking difficult to argue ‘that absolutist or-else seems like a poor idea’ without sounding wishy-washy - or catching a boot in the ass.
look the whole point of this thread is that if you didn’t want to respect somebody’s pronouns then just don’t interact with them or report them if you think they are genuinely trolling, not encourage them. if you don’t do that so your giving trolls what they want and hurting trans people who do identify with those pronouns.
i don’t get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that
it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn’t be more complicated than that
I’ve spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?
There’s a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently “dragonfucker”, who insists on the neopronoun “drag”, and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.
Except they don’t eagerly take offense to being mispronouned. Most of the time, when I’ve seen it, they don’t even say anything.
Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn’t mad that you misremembered.
Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that’s why some users may never have seen ‘Drag Rider (drag)’ at all
I haven’t seen them take offense very often
How dare you call drag ‘them’!!! >:(
😂😂😂 just kidding, drag doesn’t act like that. Thank you for sticking up for drag.
I love for drag to have the courage and space to express dragself, so it’s always heartbreaking when people are hating on drag for no reason instead of just engaging with the content of drag’s comments and having meaningful discussions. Stay true to dragself and don’t let others make drag change. Thank you to the instance admins for standing up for drag.
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If you think respecting neopronouns is a horrible idea, you picked the wrong instance
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is this a real comparison? are you doing a “slippery slope” thing?
how EXACTLY is calling drag by their preferred term going to pave the way for pedophiles to take over lgbtq spaces?
There’s no slope, I don’t think people who are attracted to minors should be accepted or validated, and making that an instance rule makes me deeply uncomfortable.
I’m just sick of seeing Minor Attracted People being blindly accepted into our spaces.
We have to draw the line somewhere.
Edit: I literally don’t care about the dragonfucker, dragons aren’t real and aren’t children.
i don’t know how or why you wandered in here, but you’re the only person taking about whatever it is you’re talking about
You are this close to a ban for your ongoing conflation of paedophilia and neopronouns. Your question was also answered in my initial post. Pronouns are to be respected. Behaviour is actionable.
Do you know what a Minor Attracted Person is?
Will Minor Attracted People be welcome in this community?
I’m going to make this simple. There is no ability for a minor to consent, and non consensual behaviour of any sort is not welcome on this instance.
And nor are you for repeated conflation of the two topics.
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A user called drag can sometimes rub people the wrong way. Sometimes it’s drag’s actions. Sometimes it’s the fact drag refers to dragself with pronouns using various permutations of drag.
The former is a valid reason for contention. The latter isn’t.
I always thought Drag was speaking in the third person. Did I misunderstand something?Edit: yes, I didDrag does both, as demonstrated in this very thread.
This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned ‘after incident response’ post.
While I’m sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn’t been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it’s more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.
Thanks for clarifying.
