Hey folks!

I’m writing this because funding for the Lemmy project has dropped to critical levels, which could seriously impact its future development.

Thanks to the generous support of our lemm.ee community, our server infrastructure costs are covered, and we even have a few months of runway. I’m deeply grateful to everyone who has contributed - lemm.ee wouldn’t exist without your help.

However, infrastructure alone isn’t enough. Our servers run Lemmy software, and without ongoing development, the platform cannot grow or even be maintained.

Lemmy is an open-source project with many contributors, but the vast majority of development work has been carried out by a small group of core maintainers. A few maintainers work full-time on the project, relying solely on donations and occasional grants to support themselves.

I’ve seen Lemmy development up close, and the maintainers have consistently gone above and beyond what I consider the standard for small open-source teams - they are constantly writing code, mentoring contributors, and keeping everything running. Their work is essential, and without continued support, it cannot be sustained.

If you value Lemmy, please consider supporting its maintainers directly. Every bit helps.

Please check out this post for more details about how to support the maintainers: https://lemm.ee/post/63034576

Thank you for reading, I hope you have a great weekend!

  • NovaOG@lemm.ee
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    1 hour ago

    It’s so sad that liberals will literally cozy up to fascists and monetarily support them however they can… But a FOSS project run by commies gets them clutching their pearls super hard

  • AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee
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    6 hours ago

    I signed up for a medium donation.

    While I don’t agree with some things happening on .ml We should not discard imperfect allies. Thank you devs for the great work you’re doing.

    • vxx@lemmy.world
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      1 hour ago

      ml arent allies at all, they’re the problem, and they wont see a stinking cent from me. It would be like donating to elon musk because I like a twitter Account that posts there.

      It’s like supporting Ukraine but donating to putins propaganda outlets.

  • milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
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    13 hours ago

    I’d like to join my voice with those saying it’s worth donating even if you disagree with the devs personally. My impression is they’re decent about making Lemmy a tech project not a personal political platform, and treating the Internet respectfully as a forum.

    The Lemmy software supports so many communities to communicate, including the huge lemmy.world that famously hates .ml. Because the software is open, it can do that freely.

    You who hate capitalism, do you donate your ad data to capitalists so they can grow sickeningly rich off your use of their software? Then you might at least let these devs live comfortably off your use of the software. And if you pay in ways you see, instead of ways you don’t, does that trouble you so much?

    You don’t have to agree. And you can still use Lemmy freely! But since this software has been such a blessing to us wanting a non-reddit platform, I hope many will be happy to bless the devs back - and they’re only asking for a modest salary.

    • Spzi@lemm.ee
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      6 hours ago

      it’s worth donating even if you disagree with the devs personally. My impression is they’re decent about making Lemmy a tech project not a personal political platform, and treating the Internet respectfully

      I want to underline this. And ask the reader to put themselves in the devs’ shoes for a moment.

      Usually, when people have strong opinions, like extreme political views, they try to further their goal wherever they can. To abstain from that desire, and create tools which can be freely used, even by their political enemies, requires a considerable amount of decency and deserves our respect.

      Either this, or they value FOSS so much (more), that they still keep Lemmy open for everyone.

      In a way, they support people from the opposite side of the political spectrum, by providing them their platform freely. Isn’t that exemplary in putting the fedi spirit above political differences?

  • conditional_soup@lemm.ee
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    14 hours ago

    The devs also say that they would gladly accept any development help as well, if you’re either unwilling or unable to financially contribute.

    • VitoRobles@lemmy.today
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      14 hours ago

      This needs to be more highlighted than just donations.

      Not trying to call out politics. But I rather find a way to contribute open source than watch my money keep the lights on very specific servers.

  • abobla@lemm.ee
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    14 hours ago

    I’ll do my part, I just wish my country’s currency wasn’t worth 1/6 of an euro :/

  • td_sp@lemmynsfw.com
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    17 hours ago

    Damn this community is a fucking joke. It’s actually not funny, just sad.

    You all parade around the internet mounted on your high horses about FOSS this, decentralized that, libre this, reject capitalism that, etc.

    But the moment you are asked to contribute your part you all start pretending to be holy saints lmfao. Most upvoted comments in these threads go like this:

    “I can’t possibly donate to this project because this guy said that thing about trans”

    And meanwhile every day you forgo your moral codes to buy all kinds of shit. Otherwise you’d be living in the middle of a remote island.

    The people you all buy from don’t merely say something you find offensive, they do lobbying with their truckloads of money that affect how you live your life and further their own agenda.

    These Lemmy devs put their work under a license that gives up the ownership and just ask for a living wage, yet by your logic they don’t deserve it?!

    • iii@mander.xyz
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      29 minutes ago

      It’s so surprising that a forum with mostly commie ideologues has a hard time finding non-freeloaders amongst the members

    • hakase@lemm.ee
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      16 hours ago

      That’s correct. People actively shilling for authoritarian regimes committing human rights atrocities, denying genocides, and aggressively silencing all dissent do not deserve it.

      All they’d have to do is develop from behind the scenes and not actively contribute to one of the worst places on the platform, and I’d have no problem donating to them.

      But they don’t, and so I don’t, and instead I get to listen to your whataboutism, literally the guy in the “and yet you participate in society” meme.

      • nutomic@lemmynsfw.com
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        16 hours ago

        Lemmy dev here, for what its worth I stopped posting about politics years ago, and also dont do any moderation on lemmy.ml besides occasionally banning an obvious spam account. I simply dont have the time or interest anymore, and prefer to focus my time on development which benefits all Lemmy users.

        Posting from alt account because these comments are not federating to my home instance.

        • hakase@lemm.ee
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          16 hours ago

          If that were to become the enforced position of the entire dev team going forward, I promise that I will donate, and provide receipts.

          • el_abuelo@programming.dev
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            5 hours ago

            What would be the correct way to voice opposing views about these issues?

            Genuinely asking as to my ignorant eyes this looks like a reasonable way of discussing the issues, so I must have some kind of wrongthink here and would love to be guided back to a place where people can discuss opposing views safely.

            • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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              4 hours ago

              Speaking from a place of explicit respect for minorities’ lived experiences, and using appropriate terminology that is both scientifically accurate and minimises harm.

              This comment fails on all three counts:
              “Biological men” is not a scientific term, because biologists don’t study men and women, they study males and females. Man and woman are genders, which are studied by psychologists and sociologists.
              “Biological men” is not a term that minimises harm. Calling trans women men is a form of misgendering, which has been well documented to cause psychological distress and worsen mental health.
              The comment denies the statement from lived experience by trans people, that trans people are being targeted by the owning class. Members of a privileged majority telling the minority that they’re wrong about their daily experiences isn’t respectful.

              Drag will be happy to provide sources for any of the claims in this comment which you have doubts about. In return, drag asks that you keep an open scientific mind, seek to minimise harm, and listen to minorities about our lived experiences.

              • el_abuelo@programming.dev
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                4 hours ago

                Thank you. No sources required, and I already try to do those things…hence my questions! I hope that my questions don’t cause harm, if they do I would like to find a way to learn without harming.

                If they had said “biological male” then this would be okay? Sounds equally as hurtful to me…what is the correct term use? Trans woman?

                The only thing I see them denying is that the same group of people spreading trans rights are also the ones spreading transphobia…which sounds logical to me?

                I appreciate that this sounds like I’m defending them but I’m really not, I suspect from what’s said in this thread that they have a storied history of being hurtful on this topic which i think is indefensible. But I am out the loop and have very little idea who this person is.

                • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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                  4 hours ago

                  Drag sees the effort you’re making and is grateful. You aren’t causing offense.

                  Yes, “biological male” would be scientifically valid language - in part - but it would not minimise harm. Trans women is much better, you’re right. Drag says it would be scientifically valid in part, because the trans women competing in the Olympics are required to no longer be entirely male. They must be on estrogen and testosterone blockers. That means regardless of what happened in the past, their body is currently performing many of the biological processes of a female, and not many of a male. In the parts of sex relevant to athletic performance, trans women are entirely non-male. Drag would say they’re females, except that trans women actually tend to be weaker than cis women due to lower testosterone. All bodies, male or female, produce testosterone. With testosterone blockers, trans women are at lower testosterone levels than a cis woman.

                  The only thing I see them denying is that the same group of people spreading trans rights are also the ones spreading transphobia…which sounds logical to me?

                  We, the trans community, spread trans rights. We pressured them into putting LGBT flags on buildings. The Olympic Committee are not the government, they’re a private organisation, and they weren’t pressured to allow trans women by governments, they were pressured by a group of scientists employed by the IOC Medical Commission (initially, in 2003. There have been developments since then).

                  We have been saying the owning class is attacking us for years. It should be obvious from Trump’s attacks on transgender people that billionaires hate us. And Rupert Murdoch owned media has been spreading transphobia all over the world for a lot longer than that.

                  If you’ll permit drag to speculate as to why: Capitalism and patriarchy are very closely linked. Trans people’s existence is a radical threat to the patriarchy at a basic level. If anyone can be any gender, if the “objective reality” of gender is destroyed, then gender oppression becomes nonsense. Rich white men want to preserve the social system that keeps them at the top, and trans people’s existence makes it obvious to everyone that they shouldn’t be.

              • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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                3 hours ago

                I love drag, but saying liberalism is coopting struggle of oppressed people to distract from the class war isn’t denying the reality of the oppression. Saying pink washing exists isn’t saying women aren’t oppressed.

                Also that’s just one sentence. Let’s not do a whichhunt thingy

        • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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          14 hours ago

          That’s a perfectly sensible position, but the money doesn’t go just to you.

      • td_sp@lemmynsfw.com
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        That meme literally says ‘We should improve society somewhat’ and lemmy is a perfect example of something that is ‘improved somewhat’ when you compare it to literally any other social media driven solely by profit and algorithms that reward whatever content the owners want.

        But the keyboard warriors now prefer lemmy die because comments of a dev who isn’t in control of the software said… Anyways I’m donating monthly now

        • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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          8 hours ago

          Lemmy won’t die. They’ll have enough money to develop the software if they just take lemmy.ml offline, and then they’d get more donation money overnight.

    • burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world
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      16 hours ago

      this is like you going out of your way to offer to give me a ride to the airport, and then you get mad at me for not being gracious enough about it, and then you accidentally hit a pedestrian at some point afterwards and use that against me.

      • aeshna_cyanea@lemm.ee
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        8 hours ago

        No, it’s about someone building a car for you while also driving their own car. The car they built for you is unquestionably good even if you don’t like where they drive their own version. I don’t think it’s unfair for them to ask compensation for maintenance they do on YOUR version

  • Carl [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    20 hours ago

    lemmy development mentioned

    dessalines criticized

    commies counter criticism

    thread turns into a shitshow

    aww yeah, it’s Lemmy time.

  • 1984@lemmy.today
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    20 hours ago

    The original post on lemmy.ml by the creator of Lemmy had a lot more details, so maybe just link to that one?

    https://lemmy.ml/post/29579005

    Tldr: They are down to about 1000 dollars per developer and will have to take jobs and stop Lemmy development if they dont get 2500 dollars per developer.

      • AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee
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        5 hours ago

        Do not discard imperfect allies.

        I do not agree with their political view etc. but I can see that the development of Lemmy is a net positive.

        Shutting down .ml won’t save them much money, it doesn’t cost much to run a instance, developing software instead of having a tech job on the other hand…

          • AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee
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            4 hours ago

            I’m sure people would also be more willing to give money of they were Vegan.

            By being overly critical of our allies we damage our movement.

            • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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              3 hours ago

              Drag hopes their financial system becomes desperate enough, and enough people say it’s about lemmy.ml, that they realise they have little choice but to take lemmy.ml offline. If that happened, they would still be able to develop for Lemmy full time, and the tankie nonsense would be gone. Everyone wins.

              If they would rather get jobs and stop working on Lemmy than take lemmy.ml offline, then drag’s none too pleased with their priorities and is comfortable enough with seeing them go. Someone will fork the software and keep working on it.

  • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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    22 hours ago

    I’ve been around for long enough, time for me to donate.

    Sure the two top admins have some shitty opinions, but they still are the main people who have put this software out. The two have been tirelessly working on it for years and years, and have made code that helps everyone, whether you share their opinions or not.

    • JohnnyEnzyme@lemm.ee
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      13 hours ago

      FWIW, I freaked out once over something relatively minor across the Lemmy-modality, and the dev (one of the two, can’t remember which) was just a calm, gem of a person upon my temporary paranoia.

      Man, I was… blown away.
      (thought I was going to be banned to hell, yadda-yadda)

    • 1984@lemmy.today
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      21 hours ago

      You are paying for their programming, not their opinions. I dont think its a big deal if they have flaws or opinions i dont agree with.

      So they dont like trans people. How does that even matter? Any trans person can use the platform anyway. The code doesnt have any opinions, its just code, and that code can be used to support trans people. The little opinions of the devs have no effect on this.

      I cant believe how spoiled some people are here. We have a platform, free of ads, quality mobile apps, lots of instances, quite a lot of users. And its not owned by big tech. We own it.

      Focus on the pluses here. I dont think another Lemmy will come along anytime soon. Alternatives are not even close in quality.

  • Ricky Rigatoni@lemm.ee
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    23 hours ago

    People are avoiding supporting lemmy monetarily due to the actions of the developers. We do not reward bad behaviors here. If lemmy development ends most of us will just move to kbin or piefed. This is a non-issue.

    • peregrin5@lemm.ee
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      22 hours ago

      Just like with Elon Musk, if someone wants people to support them monetarily, they shouldn’t work hard to make themselves objectionable to wide swaths of the population they are trying to extract money from.

            • hitmyspot@aussie.zone
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              I think kitkats taste nice but I haven’t had one in years. Whether you think they are shit or not, the point is that they provide some value for some people. On ethical grounds, I don’t buy them.

              For many people, this is the same thing. Lemmy provides value to me. However, it is open source with other forks and the devs don’t run my home instance. If Lemmy required advertising or a fee to use, it would have failed. However users are not under an obligation to donate. Generally, I would advocate donating for foss software. However, there is a difference between supporting software and supporting people.

        • peregrin5@lemm.ee
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          16 hours ago

          Elon Musk made electric cars popular. Nazi scientists developed rocket technology. That’s all fine and good, but I’m still not going to give them my money.

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      20 hours ago

      Hmm glad I found this post and the comments. I recently came here from Reddit and joined some random communities just to have something in my feed. I was a bit shocked at hammer and sickle posted non-ironically in the meme group. Noting that communists weren’t better than Nazis got me called an ungrateful shit for existing (which I apparently owe to Stalin) and banned. Moved to the second-biggest meme community the search found, where I’m not banned yet but being educated by Westerners that life in communist coutries was cheerful and Holodomor was an oopsie.

      I’m glad to hear that this is not all that Lemmy stands for, but a bit disappointed learning that top developers are a part of the problem. I’m conflicted about donating to say the least, and it does not bode well for lemmy adoption in general. I’ll stick around to see if other servers gain momentum, but I’ll need to keep an eye open for other reddit alternatives I guess

      • Alaskaball [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        9 minutes ago

        Noting that communists weren’t better than Nazis got me called an ungrateful shit for existing (which I apparently owe to Stalin) and banned.

        According to the mod logs the only thing you copped a ban for is being uncivil you lying little shit. And that’s even a temporary one at that.

      • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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        7 hours ago

        Drag is an anarchist and banned from lemmy.ml for being left wing, so drag hopes you will listen with an open mind to this:

        Karl Marx said that communism is stateless. That means in communism, the government has no authority to coerce people. Authoritarianism isn’t communism. In fact, Joseph Stalin never claimed that the USSR had achieved communism. He said they’d achieved socialism, and he made empty promises that it would be communist at some point in the future.

        You know where communism was actually successfully implemented? America and Australia. Karl Marx and his friends were inspired by the Haudenosaunee people of North America. Marx called it “primitive communism”.

          • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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            4 hours ago

            Huh. Drag misremembered. It was just a community ban performed by the lemmy.ml admins, and it’s expired

            Drag will have to unblock that community and post more leftist history until the ban is permanent. Shouldn’t take long.

        • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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          3 hours ago

          While the capital-state complex exists, the material reality is that not all states are equal. Internationalism requires us to focus on our own oppressor and trust the rest of the worldwide proletarian to fight theirs in the way they see fit.

          As a westerner, I do not have the right to tell Chinese people or any other nation that they live under a dictatorship. I have the duty to fight against the regime I live in. Otherwise, I am only participating in warmongering antagonism that is only benefitting the oligarchy.

          • Dragon Rider (drag)@lemmy.nz
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            2 hours ago

            Every state burns oil. Therefore every state is oppressing drag. You logic would only work if they weren’t harming everyone. Besides, the Palestinians and the Ukrainians have asked for our help.

      • hakase@lemm.ee
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        19 hours ago

        Most of Lemmy is fine - just avoid the tankie triad of lemmygrad, lemmy.ml, and hexbear and you should be good to go.

        Edit: And maybe also the instances that haven’t defederated hexbear in particular, since when they show up threads tend to go to shit, as you’re seeing here, unfortunately.

        • person1@lemm.ee
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          18 hours ago

          I can certainly see that Hexbear and the other two are very vocal and toxic here. Engaging in some discussion or getting my views challenged is fine, I’d rather not close myself in a bubble, but it’s sad that they would be so quick to insult and ban you. It does worry that they have some of the biggest communities. I wish I could say “oh well the protocol is neutral” but I think that with most OSS projects it matters tremendously who is at the helm; also, another poster outlined quite well that these instances seem to be the showcase for the system.

        • Ofiuco@lemmy.cafe
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          19 hours ago

          Sadly that is not enough, blocking instances at user level leaves you forced to deal with their users who will spread propaganda in every comment.
          Defederate? My instance already defederated those 3 but their posts still appear if someone from a sever that aligns with them (I can’t see any other reason to keep a federation with them) crossposts to their instance, now that post will federate with the rest anyway. Defederation should be total, but they left loopholes by design.
          And it still won’t matter because not all countries have a no-bullshit instance/comm, so it’s extremely easy to see someone post propaganda about a country without enough users on the fediverse and nobody will know, but if someone from that country challenges it, the users will pile on them (specially if it’s a populist) and downvote them (I can safely say that the only news I’ve seen about my country are goverment propaganda, but lemmy users get MAD if it’s pointed out).

          Lemmy as it exists right now must dissapear, it’s designed maliciously to keep the propaganda going instead of fighting it, it’s just the other extreme of Reddit.
          I am waiting for PieFed to get more developed to see if it gets better blocking capabilities, because I’m tired of the lemmy loopholes.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        17 hours ago

        Communism and fascism are entirely different, and conflating the two has roots in Double Genocide Theory, a form of Holocaust trivialization and Nazi Apologia. The Nazis industrialized murder and attempted to colonize the world, the Soviets uplifted the Proletariat and supported national liberation movements such as in Cuba, China, Algeria, and Palestine. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds.

        • hakase@lemm.ee
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          14 hours ago

          Person1, since you’re new here, this is Cowbee, our resident tankie apologist/propagandist.

          The most reasonable-sounding genocide denier and authoritarian regime supporter this side of the gulags. I highly recommend their alt’s comments on Hexbear if you’re interested in their more “mask off” persona. Also, remember the number one rule when interacting with hexbears: never directly engage them.

          Edit: Here are some of Cowbee’s Uyghur genocide denial comments, for example, if anyone’s interested. Note the hardline tankie talking points, but couched in the classic Cowbee “reasonable” rhetorical style.

      • Carl [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        20 hours ago

        Noting that communists weren’t better than Nazis got me called an ungrateful shit for existing

        Calling communists as bad as a Nazis is a form of genocide denial. The Soviets certainly have a lot to criticize but Stalin and Hitler are not comparable historical figures except in the broadest “they both lead a country” level. You deserved your ban and you should learn more about history before you comment on it.

        • illi@lemm.ee
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          19 hours ago

          Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler. Hitler had concentration camps, Stalin had gulags. Neither was much better than the other.

          • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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            3 hours ago

            Congo had giant work camps.

            Pretty much every ideology have commited awful shit. Nazism is the only ideology where genocide is the end goal of the state.

            • illi@lemm.ee
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              2 hours ago

              Yes, I’m aware nazis and communists were not the only ones doing terrible stuff. That doesn’t make it right

              • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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                2 hours ago

                Not the point. Nazis were the only ones putting people in ovens. Gulag’s endgoal never went to straight up kill them. Belgians endgoals wasn’t to kill Congolese, it was to make money. Hell even israelis hide their genocide behind security concerns or whatever.

                Nazi Germany’s endgoal was to eradicate non Aryans and they dedicated entire industrial complex to racial hygiene. As such, it’s a step beyond all the gulags, starvation, carpet bombing, terror, March to nowhere you want. They shoved people in fucking oven.

                • illi@lemm.ee
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                  30 minutes ago

                  Clearly. And I’m aware these are not on the same level. Not a perfect analogy for sure, but still a place people went to die to.

                  Nazis camps were also not all the same. Auschwitz was a labor camp for example - which yes, still had gas chambrers and ovens. But then there was the like of Birkenau not far from there and thats where people were actually sent to die. It is clear which of those is more evil, but you can’t say one of them wasn’t evil just because the other was more evil.

                  Are you saying those that you brought up were fine, because nazi ones are worse?

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            17 hours ago

            The Nazis industrialized mass murder, and deliberately killed millions in the Holocaust. The Soviet prison system was in no way comparable to the Nazi concentration camps designed to murder and kill, this is Holocaust trivialization. Communism and fascism are entirely different, and conflating the two has roots in Double Genocide Theory, a form of Holocaust trivialization and Nazi Apologia. The Nazis industrialized murder and attempted to colonize the world, the Soviets uplifted the Proletariat and supported national liberation movements such as in Cuba, China, Algeria, and Palestine. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds.

          • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            19 hours ago

            Gulag is the russian word for prison. It’s just really easy to make foreign words scary to racists.

            Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler.

            The literal uniform wearing german nazis that convinced you of this counted unborn children due to declining birthrates.

            • Gulag is the russian word for prison

              According to wikipedia, no, it comes from the abbreviation of “Main Directorate of Correctional Labour Camps”, in Russian: Гла́вное Управле́ние исправи́тельно-трудовы́х ЛАГере́й (ГУЛАГ).

              If you would consult the chart

              You will find “Correctional Labor Camp” under the O.G.P.U (as wikipedia also says). Of course, libs can’t tell the difference between CLC under the O.G.P.U and Colonies under the PC of Justice and will call both gulag.

            • passenger@lemm.ee
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              17 hours ago

              Just wow at this whataboutism, defending Stalin of all people.

              Gulag is the Russian word for prison, where people die or get sent to the grinder.

              There was this opposing candidate to Putin, where did he end up? Gulag.

              Until Russia gets humane treatment for prisoners, the word gulag deserves the negative connotations it has.

              Ever heard of Holodomor?

              • Kieselguhr [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                15 hours ago

                Ever heard of Holodomor?

                Have you?

                Just between February and July 1933, [Stalin] signed or countenanced nearly three dozen small allocations of food aid to the countryside, primarily to the North Caucasus and Ukraine, as well as the Kazakh lands (which necessitated sharp reductions in the bread rations for city dwellers, many of whom were put on the brink of starvation). All of these actions were woefully insufficient for avoiding the mass starvation in the countryside caused by his policies, in the face of challenging natural conditions. Still, these actions do not indicate that he was trying to exterminate peasants or ethnic Ukrainians. In the Kazakh autonomous republic, probably between 35 and 40 percent of the titular nation—as compared with 8 to 9 percent of Slavs there—perished from starvation or disease, not because the regime targeted Kazakhs by ethnicity, but because regime policy there consisted of forced denomadization. Similarly, there was no “Ukrainian” famine; the famine was Soviet.

                • Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941 by Stephen Kotkin published in October 2017 by Penguin Random House

                This is a very mainstream Stalin biography by a Princeton professor.

                Have you heard what the French did to Algerians?

                Atrocities committed against Algerians by the French army during the war included indiscriminate shootings into civilian crowds (such as during the Paris massacre of 1961), execution of civilians when rebel attacks occurred, bombings of villages suspected of helping the FLN,removed, disembowelment of pregnant women, imprisonment without food in small cells (some of which were small enough to impede lying down), throwing detainees from helicopters and into the sea with concrete on their feet, and burying people alive. Torture methods included beatings, mutilations, burning, hanging by the feet or hands, torture by electroshock, waterboarding, sleep deprivation and sexual assaults.

                Now you’ll say this is whataboutism, but if you always bring up an imaginary genocide like the Holodomor when someone talks about the USSR or Russia, but you never mention this actual mass murder when someone talks about France then you are a giant hypocrite.

                The West was worse by their own metrics of bodycount.

                • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                  9 hours ago

                  The intentionality of Holodomor is debated, but calling an event that killed millions of people and scarred generations “imaginary genocide” or “Nazi propaganda” like the other commenter did is deranged.

                  The quote you posted is far from final. I won’t pretend to have the answer, but you presented one opinion as if it’s a mainstream and accepted view, when it’s not. Just Wikipedia shows multiple views, and I am sure that academic literature would present even more.

                  So let’s be realistic and admit that if academic consensus can’t be reached by historians by now, you don’t have the truth in your pocket as nobody else does, and we won’t figure it out in a Lemmy conversation.

                • passenger@lemm.ee
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                  8 hours ago

                  The problem here is not that I don’t mention some unrelated atrocities by the western powers, it is you guys denying the ones by Russia and China among others. You just made my point.

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                15 hours ago

                Ever heard of Holodomor?

                There are enough links in this thread already showing that this is literally nazi propaganda that I think it’s fair to assume you’re a deliberate nazi instead of an idiot getting strung along

                e: lol one page long user history and you can already find nazi apologia in it https://hexbear.net/comment/6022384

                • passenger@lemm.ee
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                  9 hours ago

                  So this user thinks Ukraine are Nazis and Putin did right by attacking them.

                  I am supposedly a nazi apologist by this logic (???).

                  When in fact, it is you who denies Holodomor and perverts the facts about Ukraine war. You who turns a blind eye to Putin and… Stalin(???).

                  Looks like troll factory to me so useless to argue.

                • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                  8 hours ago

                  There are enough links in this thread already showing that this is literally nazi propaganda

                  Maybe you should practice a big dose of humility, considering that one comment up you were making stuff up about what words mean, and now you are misinterpreting a single quote about a single opinion about the holodomor that focuses purely on whether it was intentional or not.

                  Calling it “Nazi propaganda” is just complete nonsense.

                  To reiterate, “enough links in this thread” refers to one out of 16 views listed in a Wikipedia page, which for sure is not an exhaustive list of all scholars’ views. Nowhere is to be found that holodomor is “basically Nazi propaganda” and the fact you think anybody questioning your uninformed opinion is a Nazi apologist is just a mental shortcut you are taking to protect your views from any level of scrutiny.

                  Maybe deal with the fact that you simply are not equipped to discuss this topic.

          • Kieselguhr [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            19 hours ago

            Afaik

            Afaik: written abbreviation for as far as I know: used when you believe that something is true, but you are not completely certain. Internet, email and texting conventions.

            See the thing is, you don’t know shit

          • Alaskaball [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            19 hours ago
            a bunch of off-topic yakking related to your comment but detracts from the overall post.

            1, how the West treats the word gulag - as seen by your application equivocating them to nazi death camps - is not reflective of reality of it being applied as a catch-all term for prisons.

            2, the highest deaths that occured in the Soviet penal system occured during ww2 with source of deaths primarily stemming from nazi POWs

            3, the commonly cited numbers of deaths that occured in the Soviet penal system comes from an openly flawed and biased methodology chosen exclusively to fabricate a false reality that equivocates nazi fascism with Soviet communism, which was further boosted by the CIA during the cold war to smear their ideological opposition’s image. The real numbers have been revealed with the opening of the Soviet archives after the fall of the Soviet Union, allowing actual historians to access primary sources to clear up the cold war era historical revisionism that obscured our understanding of the truth for the past 80 years.

            4, this is not to say the system ran in that era is flawless. It in fact had blemishes and flaws that stemmed from the monstrously brutal tsarist regimn that the Soviets overthrew. That said even at its worst during the second world War its own brutality is dwarfed by the American penal system from back then to this very moment.

            Here’s an article that discusses “double genocide theory”, which dissects the fact that equivocating the worst excesses that occured under the Soviet Union as being anything remotely near the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by the German Nazi regimn is to commit and engage in Holocaust denialism

            https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory

            Here’s an excerpt from a book that lightly delves into the numbers, but there’s plenty of other information floating around as well.

            https://hexbear.net/post/136521?scrollToComments=false

            • illi@lemm.ee
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              17 hours ago

              the fact that equivocating the worst excesses that occured under the Soviet Union as being anything remotely near the monstrous crimes against humanity perpetrated by the German Nazi regimn is to commit and engage in Holocaust denialism

              Now let’s be clear. I was talking death counts. And I do believe that the Nazis were worse. I saw Auschwitz and Birkenau camps and those are sights that I will never forget. I get chills just remembering it. So please do be cautions who you call holocaust denier.

              But we are still comparing two evils here. One is greater, one is lesser. But “lesser” evil doesn’t necessarily mean the evil was small.

              • Alaskaball [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                13 hours ago

                optimistically prison reform and eventually abolishment would be the best course of action altogether. There’s really no shades of grey in stating that the penal system as we’ve known it through out history has been and currently is a barbaric institution of vindictive cruelty by man against their fellow man. That said, i’ll return to the comparison you’re making and emphasize again you’re making a false equivocation between the two. It would be more accurate to compare the former Soviet penal system to the American penal system than it would be to compare the former Soviet penal system to the former Nazi German genocide camps. There were no Soviet Auschwitz Concentration Camp, no Soviet Birkenau Concentration Camp, no Soviet Sisak Concentration Camp, no Soviet Salaspils Concentration Camp, no Soviet Vyritsa Children’s Concentration Camp, etcetera and so forth down the list of monstrous acts perpetrated by the nazi regimn. That is what I mean by saying you’re perpetuating the double genocide theory an thusly perpetuating holocaust denialism. When you make a throwaway sentence such as ‘Afaik Stalin is resoposible for more deaths than Hitler. Hitler had concentration camps, Stalin had gulags. Neither was much better than the other.’ you do the footwork of the neo-nazis on their behalf while you yourself may think and believe otherwise. I think you’re an intelligent and a kind person. I just want to ask you to think twice before making such throw-away comments in our increasingly reactionary rightist world that we’re unfortunately existing in.

              • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                15 hours ago

                Now let’s be clear. I was talking death counts. And I do believe that the Nazis were worse. I saw Auschwitz and Birkenau camps and those are sights that I will never forget. I get chills just remembering it. So please do be cautions who you call holocaust denier.

                You’re repeating nazi propaganda deliberately created to be holocaust denial so honestly fuck how you feel about yourself. If someone has a robust and well supported reason to call you a holocaust denier why the fuck would you respond with a hollow ‘how dare you’

                Do self crit

                • illi@lemm.ee
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                  6 minutes ago

                  You will note I never denied nazi crimes in any of my comments. I just don’t deny communist crimes either.

              • Kieselguhr [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                14 hours ago

                But “lesser” evil doesn’t necessarily mean the evil was small.

                You are right, the USA and the UK were the lesser evil compared to the Nazis, but we should never forget their crimes against humanity, just as we should never forget the flaws of the Soviets, still, the USSR was the lesser evil in the Cold War.

                Glad we are clear on that, not sure why you brought up Nazi apologist talking points before like:

                Neither [Nazi Germany or the USSR] was much better than the other.

                It’s important that you visit memorials erected to in the memory of the Victims of Communism, sometimes there are hundreds of names there. I once checked a near one, and decided to google some of the names of the people the evil russkies took to the Gulags. It’s so weird how often they were Axis soldiers accused of heinous war crimes! But Axis soldiers could never! Must have been fabricated!

                edit:

                These real people are on actual Victims of Communism (VoC) websites, and after just 5 minutes of searching, I found the crimes they were tried and found guilty of.

                Case 1

                In 1942, he was appointed district leader in the Budapest District XII organization of the Arrow Cross Party, and from October 15, 1944, he served in the armed party service. Between November 28, 1944, and January 14, 1945, he participated in the apprehension, robbery, assault, and unlawful execution of several hundred people considered Jewish in District XII of Budapest and on the Buda bank of the Danube.

                Case 2

                From June 1942 to January 1943, he served as the deputy commander of the 101/5 forced labor company. On the Eastern Front, he treated forced laborers cruelly and ordered his subordinates to do the same. Through his intervention, the so-called “leper section” was created, to which only sick forced laborers were assigned. He was dissatisfied with their work performance, so he denied them food and medical care. As a result of his actions, only 22 out of the company’s 260 personnel survived.

                Case 3

                Following the Arrow Cross takeover, he became a party serviceman and then deputy to Géza Horváth, the IX district party leader. However, Illés exercised the actual power in the district. He decided the fate of the people brought into the district Arrow Cross house. He interrogated the persecuted under severe abuse and then, under the pretext of transporting them to the ghetto, gave the order for their execution. On December 19, 1944, he conducted a raid on St. Stephen’s Hospital with several party servicemen, from where they abducted 40 people and handed them over to the party servicemen of District II, who executed them on the banks of the Danube. All valuables were taken from the people brought into the Arrow Cross house, of which Illés kept a record. On one occasion, he had a cartload of stolen goods transported from the house at 39 Lónyai Street.

                • illi@lemm.ee
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                  It’s important that you visit memorials erected to in the memory of the Victims of Communism, sometimes there are hundreds of names there

                  We don’t have such monuments over here. But I know for a fact that communist regime in my country inprisoned or persecuted also members of the nazi resistance movement as well as soldiers fighting the nazis abroad. I have no issues with actual nazis getting punished for what they did.

    • Jimbabwe@lemmy.world
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      23 hours ago

      What actions of the developers are you talking about? I’m not trying to start a fight, I’m honestly out of the loop or whatever.

      • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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        22 hours ago

        I imagine the biggest point are the censorship, disinformation and tankie allegations. These are all documented in this post. Another point worth bringing up is that they are the admins of lemmy.ml, where most of the allegations happen. Lemmy.ml also has something of a tankie problem and one of the devs has said that the donations will also cover the cost of running the instance. So by donating to the devs you’re also donating to an instance that possibly has no problem with censorship, disinformation and harboring tankies.

        I would be willing to turn a blind eye if I could trust the devs to step away from lemmy.ml and focus solely on the development of Lemmy. But I don’t trust the devs enough to actually do that so I personally won’t be supporting Lemmy development until someone else becomes the maintainer of Lemmy.

        EDIT: just to cover off the inevitable “what will happen if we stop supporting Lemmy. I don’t want to go back to Reddit” fear. If Lemmy doesn’t work out and it gets abandoned there’s always Mbin. Anyone here from the Reddit exodus knows that it’s annoying to migrate but Mbin can federate with Lemmy which means going from Lemmy to Mbin is going to be less painful than form Reddit to Lemmy.

        • Nutomic@lemmy.ml
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          17 hours ago

          lemmy.ml is part of Lemmy development as it is used to test new versions before release, take performance measurements and have first-hand experience with the mod tools. If I stepped away from lemmy.ml it would make Lemmy worse and cause more problems for other instance admins. In any case the costs for lemmy.ml hosting are already covered at a much lower donation level, anything you contribute goes directly to developer salaries.

          • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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            4 hours ago

            I’ve given it some more thought. There’s no guarantee that money going to the developers won’t be used to for the instance they are financing. If I give you money and the lemmy.ml funds are empty, are you going to let lemmy.ml die? Considering you said it is used to test new versions of lemmy and measure performance and test how effective the mod tools are I don’t think you would let lemmy.ml die. You’d finance it yourself, most likely from the money that is donated for the development of lemmy. So separating lemmy development and lemmy.ml instance costs wouldn’t really change the situation.

            But I also no longer think it’s inherently necessary to step away from lemmy.ml. I get the value a real instance would give to development, so what I think needs to happen is a shift in what lemmy.ml is supposed to be. If the purpose of lemmy.ml is to support the development of lemmy then the primary goal of the instance should be that. Clearly the biggest issue people have is politics and how lemmy.ml is used as a vessel to push a certain kind of political agenda, which means if the primary goal is to support development then the instance right now contradicts its primary goal. It’s dissuading people from donating to the development and it’s making the main developers (you in this case) focus on the drama (for the lack of a better word) instead of spending time developing. I think the solution is pretty simple, lemmy.ml should take a hard anti-politics stance. Do a purge and kick all politics off the instance, including instance users who discuss politics on other instances. Have it be memes, technology, privacy and FOSS and gaming and everything else that doesn’t necessarily lead to politics. Users who want to take part in political discourse can find instances that allow political discourse, and that includes you and Dessalines. If you want to be political create an alt account on a different instance. Communities that want to be political can find other instances to be in political. You don’t need politics to run lemmy.ml. And for the sake of clarity also add to the instance about section that the instance exists to support lemmy development because currently that is not written anywhere.

            If you think that’s unfair to the current users of lemmy.ml I honestly don’t see how you could resolve this situation without stepping away from lemmy.ml.

            • Nutomic@lemmy.ml
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              3 hours ago

              So you expect us to make a lot of major changes to the oldest Lemmy instance in existence and disappoint many users. All for the goal of maybe possibly getting a few more donations, without any guarantee. Its more likely that youre a cheapskate looking for any excuse to avoid donating, and keep using Lemmy without contributing at all. If you dont want to donate at least be honest, I would respect that.

              • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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                I’m simply explaining the grievances people have that is stopping them from donating and what I personally would do in your situation to alleviate those grievances. That grievance is the nature of lemmy.ml which you’ve either voluntarily or involuntarily let slip into promoting a very specific political agenda that most lemmy users don’t agree with. If you’re genuine in your desire to have lemmy.ml as something that helps development then it should be apparent to you how the current state of lemmy.ml contradicts that desire. If you can’t acknowledge that I can only assume you’re using the development of lemmy as an excuse to keep lemmy.ml as it is.

                Which segues to the end of my previous comment. If you think that’s unfair to the users of the instance then the only thing that you can do is step away. You can always start a new instance or you can work something out with the existing instance owners to get the data and feedback you need to develop Lemmy. And to be clear those instances can’t be Lemmygrad or Hexbear because those two instances are also not acceptable for most Lemmy users and wouldn’t solve the grievances people have.

                At the end of the day it is not my concern if you get funded or not. I have no issue funding the development despite your obviously transphobic stance and Dessalines stance on Uighurs because I am capable of separating your work from who you are. I don’t have to like you to support your work so I’m willing to compromise here. But me tolerating both of you doesn’t mean I’m going to compromise supporting a platform that is actively promoting an agenda I cannot accept. I’ve already compromised on tolerating you, how about you compromise a bit to meet half way? If you’re unwilling to compromise this is my final alternative to supporting lemmy. Remove yourselves from the project, let someone more reasonable than you to take over and I’ll donate to them.

                You have to understand that at this point Lemmy is bigger than you and its popularity is growing in spite of you and lemmy.ml. The fact that Lemmy is growing but your donations are shrinking should make that point evident. It’s up to you if you’re going to adjust to the new reality or stick your old ways and run into monetary issues.

          • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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            14 hours ago

            They should try just using it for development instead of forcing out tankie propaganda, then.

          • hakase@lemm.ee
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            17 hours ago

            lemmy.ml is part of Lemmy development as it is used to test new versions before release, take performance measurements and have first-hand experience with the mod tools.

            Then you really shouldn’t be surprised that people don’t want to donate when part of that support goes toward an instance that openly and aggressively supports authoritarian regimes, human rights violations, and genocide denial, and brutally censors any dissenting viewpoints.

            If I stepped away from lemmy.ml it would make Lemmy worse and cause more problems for other instance admins.

            The other option, of course, would be to run lemmy.ml in a way that doesn’t actively piss off the majority of Lemmy users, but that doesn’t seem to be a path you’re willing to consider.

            Honestly I’m genuinely torn about the situation. I’ve found such a great place here (outside of the tankie triad, of course), that as much as I disagree with your politics I’d probably donate anyway because of how great Lemmy is as a platform, if only you developed behind the scenes and weren’t personally responsible for one of the worst places on said platform. As it is, as long as both a) lemmy.ml continues to be run the way it is and b) you continue to have an active part in that instance’s abhorrent behavior, I can’t in good conscience give you any financial support.

              • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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                14 hours ago

                At this point, I’m not sure I would trust the truthfulness of that claim. The hard-core refusal to do so up until this point has been both surprising and unsettling, to say the least.

                I would consider it, but being completely honest, this whole event has really soured me on it. I probably just start looking outside of lemmy sometime in the coming weeks 🤷‍♂️

                • Nutomic@lemmy.ml
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                  3 hours ago

                  There was no hardcore refusal because this matter wasnt even mentioned as a blocker for donations until a few days ago. In fact lemmy.ml hosting is only funded via Opencollective, so if you donate through any other platform the money goes entirely to developer salaries.

              • hakase@lemm.ee
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                16 hours ago

                Probably not - for me it’s more that the majority of my negative experiences on Lemmy have come on lemmy.ml, so the sticking point really is your involvement with it.

                For a lot of other people in these threads though, it does seem like funding the hosting is the biggest deal. If the server costs for lemmy.ml are as low as you say, splitting off the hosting costs separately in some way (like taking donations directly from lemmy.ml that go into their own account separate from general Lemmy donations, for example) probably would see at least some sort of increase in donations to the overall Lemmy project. Especially if you made an announcement that this is what you were doing and maintained an official “separation of finances” position going forward.

                If it wouldn’t be too much extra work, it’s probably worth a shot.

                • Nutomic@lemmy.ml
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                  4 hours ago

                  In other words your experience on Lemmy has been mostly positive? Then why dont you want to support the development of this free software? Keep in mind that lemmy.ml is exclusively financed via Opencollective, all other donation platforms go directly to developer salaries.

        • Psychadelligoat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          22 hours ago

          Tankies, specifically

          Authoritarian commies who have very different-from-reality opinions and word definitions

          Oh, and transphobia

        • peregrin5@lemm.ee
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          22 hours ago

          They’re communists transphobic, class reductionists, support Russian invasion of Ukraine, support Uyghur genocide, support N. Korean dictators, worked hard to ensure Republicans won US elections, run an instance where they act like the authoritarian dictators they love and ban everyone who disagrees with them even slightly for being “liberals” 😱

          FTFY

          • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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            3 hours ago

            WorKed HarD to enSurE rePub woN

            Let me guess, they actually talked about Gaza? Funny how the libs are now mad at Palestinians for costing them the elections.

            A few days ago one of the worldists got banned for saying shit like “Palestinians deserved it”. His history was full of those sarcastic remarks about how trump was so much better for gaza

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      20 hours ago

      This is bs, because you - and perhaps almost everyone else here - are supporting monetarily much worse people than the Lemmy developers.

    • 1984@lemmy.today
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      21 hours ago

      Those places suck and doesnt even have quality apps…

      I dont think its a non-issue.

        • 1984@lemmy.today
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          21 hours ago

          Yeah? I dont agree its transphobic to want women to still be competetive in the sports they are competing in.

          I dont think we should have men identifying as women, coming in and beating women in women sports.

          Thats not transphobic, and even if it was, its my opinion still, whatever you label it as.

          • 4n41y4no5@crazypeople.online
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            3 hours ago

            That’s idiotic. We have weight classes to take care of body differences already. Are you also advocating for sport to be racially segregated?

            • 1984@lemmy.today
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              3 hours ago

              Weight classes to take care of body differences? Those are to take care of body differences in the same gender! Lols.

          • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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            18 hours ago

            The Olympics have allowed trans women to compete against cis women since the 90s, and yet there’s never been a trans medalist. If there was a genuine advantage to being trans in sport, at least one country in the past three decades would have loaded their team with trans women and cleaned house. However, taking enough hormones to make a masculine body into a feminine one after it’s already grown means you’ve got way less testosterone than a cis woman, so that counters out any initial advantage. Claiming otherwise is misinformation. Spreading misinformation to the detriment of trans people is transphobic.

          • neoinvin@lemm.ee
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            20 hours ago

            showing an unbelievable lack of understanding and your whole ass on the internet huh? you’re entitled to your opinion, like everyone else. but it sure is a stupid one.

  • selokichtli@lemmy.ml
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    14 hours ago

    It’s kind of clarifying to check the original post and the attitudes around there. I actually recommend it.

  • dryfter@lemm.ee
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    18 hours ago

    So right now I’m not in a financial situation that I can even possibly think about donating.

    My general issue with FOSS is the guilt trip I go on when devs plead for donations – that’s MY issue, not any of the dev teams – but it plays a part in not using FOSS as much as I would like. I don’t want to sell my soul, but that’s about all I have to give right now so free ad-supported services and software are where I tend to lean to these days.

    However, I am trying to put as much focus on supporting less shitty humans and buy locally whenever I can now. I didn’t realize the views of the devs of Lemmy until a few days ago and I’m a little concerned to be even using Lemmy as a whole as it shows some level of tacit support for the devs and their beliefs. If they weren’t open about it, obviously this wouldn’t be an issue but since it’s out in public it’s an issue.

    I swear I have a point to all this…

    Is Lemmy funded just by direct contributions from users or do instances take extra money from their donations and funnel it down to the main project?

    If anyone is familiar with the various 12 Step programs, this is pretty much how those main programs get funded. The local meetings take donations that pay for the rent and any other expenses and then donate left over funds to the main service organization while keeping a reserve for emergencies.

    If I were in the position to donate, I would feel much better donating to Lemmy.ee rather than the main project considering their views on certain political issues. I would not be directly donating, but if the instance donated extra funds I might be ok with that. It just feels different for some reason.

    • aeshna_cyanea@lemm.ee
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      8 hours ago

      You realize it’s the owner of .ee that made the post right. Since the instance is still running, still federated with the main one, and the post is still up, maybe that says something about how acceptable those politics are

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    22 hours ago

    I came here because reddit is turning into a corporate shithole. Users getting banned because of Luigi apologia and so on and so on. Was really relieved that we did in fact have a great, open source alternative to reddit.

    My problem is the lead developers of this platform. They do not see the issues with their political bias being woven into their platform (and their transphobia), it will face the exact same shit thats happening to reddit today.

    I can’t pay money to people who deny the pain of trans people. I just can’t. And if the lead developers of Lemmy run out of funds, well then I guess they’ll have to just take a good look in the mirror if they don’t see the reason why Lemmy failed. For now I’m gonna use lemmy if I can, but you can’t expect people from reddit to come here and support you guys when their is really hateful shit being spewed by those people (tankies).

    • gravityowl@lemm.ee
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      21 hours ago

      They do not see the issues with their political bias being woven into their platform

      What the fuck are you talking about? Their ideology is not part of the project in the slightest. Which is why every other instance works perfectly even if they don’t agree politically with the dev team

      For now I’m gonna use lemmy if I can, but you can’t expect people from reddit to come here and support you guys

      That’s because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

      Go back to Reddit with such shitty takes where you move away from massive corporations only to leech off small projects supported by small donors and real people.

      You’re literally just another one of those people complaining about the lack of alternatives in tech while also being unwilling to support the products you’re currently using and talking shit about…