• qooqie@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    117
    arrow-down
    18
    ·
    1 year ago

    The only way for libertarianism to work is if every human had only good intentions. Since that’s simply never going to happen libertarianism will never work. Just my opinion feel free to disagree.

    • becausechemistry@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      58
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      Libertarianism is a theory espoused to those with good intentions by people that have bad intentions.

      It doesn’t work for almost anyone. But it super works for some. That’s the point.

      • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        0
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        It doesn’t work for almost anyone

        You don’t believe that upholding, and maximising individual rights, and freedoms is a net positive?

        • becausechemistry@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          You’re forcing a black-and-white dichotomy where one does not exist, which is a nice oversimplification that’s the exact sort of thing I’m talking about.

          Everyone loves freedom! Like the freedom to:

          • pay a child to work in a mine
          • schedule workers for 80+ hours a week
          • drive without speed limits
          • use as much water out of the local river as desired
          • dump waste into that same river
          • sell unregulated, untested medicine

          So obviously there are “freedoms” that mainly serve to infringe on the actual freedoms of others. Those just happen to be the ones that libertarians don’t talk about so much but are really what they’re after.

          • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            0
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            You’re forcing a black-and-white dichotomy where one does not exist, which is a nice oversimplification that’s the exact sort of thing I’m talking about.

            I apologize, I neglected to write a specific part of my comment that ties in its intent. When I said “Maximize individual rights, and freedoms”, I did not mean to infer “Maximize individual rights, and freedoms at the expense of another”. The limit to the maximization of rights and freedoms is that they cannot infringe on the rights and freedoms of another. This was my mistake. I apologize for this confusion.

            pay a child to work in a mine

            I don’t believe in child labor. I believe that a child is not capable of giving consent. I believe that a civilized, and free society is dependent on the ability of one to give consent. Exploitation arises out of inability to give consent.

            schedule workers for 80+ hours a week

            If one consents, then there should be no issue.

            drive without speed limits

            Speed limits, and public roads are an interesting issue for sure. They are actually rather complicated issues to tackle. That being said, specifically for speed limits, I would argue that they are justified as an individual driving dangerously fast is recklessly endangering the lives of those around them – this would be a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle.

            use as much water out of the local river as desired

            This is also a difficult issue to tackle. I think this is where Georgism typically comes in. I am inclined to say that one cannot freely take water from a river for the same reason that one cannot freely emit pollution. That being said, in terms of tort law, it would probably be easier to make a claim against a polluter than one taking water from a river. Perhaps a limit could be imposed on the exploitation of a natural resource through a tax (this, I think, is in line with an argument that a Georgist would make).

            dump waste into that same river

            This would be pollution, and could be handled through tort law, and other environmental protection laws.

            sell unregulated, untested medicine

            I generally see no issue with this. One cannot willfully endanger the public without repercussions. I suppose the argument could then be should it be preventative, or remedial. That being said, the FDA, for example, does not only mandate a drugs safety, they also mandate it’s efficacy. There is an enormous difference between mandating a drug’s efficacy vs. mandating it’s safety.

            [source] Congress amended the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act in 1962 to require that new drugs be shown effective, as well as safe, to obtain FDA approval.

            • becausechemistry@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I appreciate your thorough response, but I think it’s clear that “maximize individual freedom” is a BS marketing phrase given how much nuance you had to use when rejecting the “freedoms” I proposed.

              But also. No problem with coercing workers to do 80 hour weeks? I don’t think you’ve ever been in a situation where someone had that kind of power over you.

              And selling junk but “safe” medicine is as dangerous as selling cyanide labeled as aspirin. Or are you content suing the drug company after your kid’s asthma rescue inhaler was actually just full of nothing and they asphyxiate to death?

              • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                I think it’s clear that “maximize individual freedom” is a BS marketing phrase given how much nuance you had to use when rejecting the “freedoms” I proposed.

                Again, it should be strongly noted that the maximization of individual freedom does not entail that such freedoms are at the expense of another. Also the usage of the term “maximization” is intentional in that it does not describe a destination, but, instead, an aspiration, subject to the practicalities, and nonidealities of the real world. It should also be noted that you are affirming the consequent in your argument by rejecting all other examples by arguing from, most likely unintentionally, cherry picked points of contention.

                No problem with coercing workers to do 80 hour weeks? I don’t think you’ve ever been in a situation where someone had that kind of power over you.

                When one enters the employ of another, a contractual agreement of one’s expected working conditions is signed. If one wishes to give consent that their employer has the ability to demand an 80+ hour work week, at the risk of termination, then that is their prerogative. One’s ignorance of their own contractual agreements should not be my concern. Furthermore, a competitive, free-enterprise system would ensure that there is another employer available to take up that disillusioned employee. And, of course,

                And selling junk but “safe” medicine is as dangerous as selling cyanide labeled as aspirin.

                In what way? Also, it should be noted that selling “junk” medicine is not an immunity against independent audits on it’s efficacy.

                Or are you content suing the drug company after your kid’s asthma rescue inhaler was actually just full of nothing and they asphyxiate to death?

                Hm, this is under the assumption that a company doesn’t care about it’s own longevity, nor profits. If a company falsely advertises, this is a surefire way for that company to quickly go under. Furthermore, proper tort law would assure that all those involved are held accountable for damages, and that appropriate remediation is ordered. One’s ignorance in consumption really should not be the concern of another. Also, there is a 3rd possible option that wasn’t mentioned in that the FDA could instead serve the role of being a certification body, rather than a regulatory body. What I mean by this is that a company could go through the motions of ensuring the safety, and the efficacy of their drug in order to get an FDA approval stamp on their product. This approval would then be the guarantee that a consumer could look for if they wish to buy a pre-approved (and, presumably, more expensive) drug. A company would be incentivized to go this route as it would ensure them preferential treatment with consumers in the market. A consumer could, of course, still buy a non-certified drug, but they assume the risk associated with that.

    • idunnololz@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      The problem is that it doesn’t work even if everyone has good intentions. It needs everyone to agree on what “good intentions” even means.

    • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      Also there’s the fact that nearly everybody’s idea of freedom is drastically different and some people’s freedoms infringe on others.

    • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      I personally don’t fully agree. Libertarianism just doesn’t work at all. It is not even a complete system from a logical sense. It falls apart when faced with basic scrutiny, or they just theorize a system that’s basically the same as a central government but with a private entity name stamped on it.

      It is an ideology stemming from a basic principle, but they sadly don’t seem to think of the entire system as a whole.

    • trailing9@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      8
      ·
      1 year ago

      Libertarianism also works if there is information about bad people and good people are free to avoid them.

      Freedom of information and freedom of action.

      It’s easier to avoid bad people in free markets than it is to prevent them from taking and abusing positions of power in a powerful state.

      • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        Except freedom of information and freedom of action are two of the first things to die without regulation. Company towns and crooked newspapers are hallmarks of low-regulation.

        It’s easier to vote bad people out of positions of power in a powerful state than it is to prevent them from abusing executive roles in powerful conglomerates.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Is it still libertarianism if those freedoms don’t exist anymore? I don’t think libertarians argue for no regulations.

          Regarding the bad people, the trick is that bad people don’t look bad, much like captured markets offer the illusion of choice. So it’s difficult to vote them out.

          The thing is that we argue different moments in development. You compare the correction of the corrupted states whereas I was talking about maintaining the functioning states.

        • Grayox@lemmy.mlOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          23
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          1 year ago

          Its like when someone uses human greed as a reason Communism wont work.

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            18
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Funny how that someone is often the same who assumes humanity is flawless when libertarianism! Could it be that those people are just greedy and selfish hypocrites? Nah!

          • PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            They’re pretty much similarly utopian but the neat thing is we can work towards both at the same time.

          • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            1 year ago

            Which is a very uninformed (or intentionally misleading) thing to say, because Communism from it’s very beginning has always assumed that there are bad actors and always will be, hence the whole dictatorship of the proletariat thing.

                • Aqarius@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  The idea (in theory) was that once the proleteriat seizes power, they would act akin to a dictator in ancient Rome, who would be given the extraordinary powers to handle extraordinary circumstances (such as, in this case, the (re)construction of society). It’s not implying totalitarian rule.

                  • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    It’s also the state power to oppress counter revolutionaries and the former high class, often through violence and forced labour. That to me is a form of dictatorship, even if it does provide better conditions and freedom to much more people than the newly oppressed.

                    I’m not saying it to praise it or condemn it, I just think it’s a fact at this point.

          • ciko22i3@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            8
            arrow-down
            22
            ·
            1 year ago

            Communism wont work because it will never be implemented. If a country ever implements true communism it will experience extreme brain drain and be left with only the most unskilled people.

            • Spuddaccino@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              10
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              If a country ever implements true communism it will experience extreme brain drain and be left with only the most unskilled people.

              I’m not sure where you got this idea from. I’m not particularly informed on the subject, but when I look up the dictionary definition of communism, I get this:

              a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

              Emphasis mine. If people with more ability are paid more, then they shouldn’t be flocking out of the country, right?

              • ciko22i3@sopuli.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                15
                ·
                1 year ago

                Why even work hard if you cant spend the money to own something/start a business. What will you spend the money on? The good of humanity? Get out of of here with that bullshit. If my country inplements communism im leaving on a first plane to a place where my skills will benefit me.

                • Spuddaccino@reddthat.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  My understanding, however limited, is that “property” means something different in this context. Essentially, it means things like real estate and businesses, things that make money. You can own food, clothes, a TV, watches, a car, whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t make money.

                  If you wanted to start a business, you probably could, and you wouldn’t need to pay for it. The State would own the business, and you would be paid to run that business. This absolves you of all the risk associated with it, and you get paid more than a grocery store shelf stocker because you’re doing a harder job, and thus demonstrating greater ability.

                  • ciko22i3@sopuli.xyz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    So you’re dependant on the government and can’t (not allowed to) do anything about it. Sounds great. My car can make money, my computer can make money, but i guess im not allowed to do it if big daddy Lenin doesn’t want me to.

                    People who can will leave in flocks.

                  • deafboy@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    But that degrades a person to a child. A child can own a trinket or two, but for anything of real value, there’s mommy and daddy.

                    Which fits perfectly well with my hypothesis, that the majority of people actually don’t want a government. They want a babysitter to watch over them.

                • Grayox@lemmy.mlOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I hear Dubai is looking for day laborers! Im sure the lack of regulations make it a great place for workers!

                  • deafboy@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    And yet, people are still coming there voluntarily. But that word is missing from the communist dictionary.

                    The will of a worker is nothing under the communism. It’s always about some abstract mythical collective.

                • floofloof@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  “Communism won’t work because I only work for selfish gain so everyone else must be the same as me. Anyone who says they’d work for non-selfish reasons must be lying because I’m selfish and everyone else must be just like me. And if they set up a society where selfishness wasn’t the main motivator, I’d be out of there to go where I could still be selfish. Therefore communism is bullshit.”

                  Communist societies have had their problems but this has never been a good argument.

            • deafboy@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              1 year ago

              It’s ok comrade. Uninformed peoole often says so, but the braindrain in communism has been accouted for. A bit of a barbed wire, some dogs, a few guys with daddy issues and a gun will stop any brains crossing the border. /s

    • weastie@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      14
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Respectfully, I think the opposite. I think, for the most part, a free® market naturally benefits humans with good intentions and harms those with bad intentions.

      For example, let’s say in a free market, somebody wanted to start a business with horrible working conditions, horrible salary, horrible everything. Now, if the economy is real bad then people might work there, but for the most part, that business is going to fail because people won’t work there, and would choose other jobs instead. So in this case, a free market actually incentivizes “good intentions”. The business owner will have to improve work conditions, salary, etc. so that people will work there instead of elsewhere.

      And one of the important aspects of a free market is the ability to start a competing business. If there was a company with overall poor working conditions and salary, it would highly incentivize someone to start a new company with better conditions, because they could pull in all the workers from the other company.

      And look, I’m not saying this is fool proof and works 100% of the time, and I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a healthy amount of regulation. But if you compare this to an economic system where businesses are run by the government, you can simply just be stuck with shitty work conditions and shitty salary, and not be able to do anything about it.

      • qooqie@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        10
        ·
        1 year ago

        That’s fine to disagree. I used to believe this back when I took Econ classes in college, every Econ professor is a libertarian lmao. I just don’t think a free market would punish bad actors. Tons of people turn a blind eye to anything as long as costs are cheap

      • 257m@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        1 year ago

        That only works when worker are less replaceable and desperate. Their are a lots of open job positions today but most pay less than the cost of living.

      • TheHarpyEagle@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        My concern is that “bad product” to the consumer is mostly a matter of price and quality; environmental impact, legality, and even employee safety rank much lower with the average person as far as choosing where to spend their money. Companies can and do operate for years on the suffering of the lower class in particular, often openly doing so, and still make oodles of money.

    • Monkstrosity@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      22
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s just like socialism; great concept, but impossible to perfectly implement. That said, I’d still prefer a system where I maintain independence and freedom than any alternative since humans are inherently are own largest problems.

      • Micromot@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        18
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’d prefer a system similar to what we have in germany right now as it is a mix of socialism and capitalism in a way that reduces the exploitation that free market capitalism brings. Complete freedom in market almost always leads to exploitation which is terrible

        • PatFusty@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          How exactly does Germany reduce exploitation from capitalism? Is it labor laws? I would like to remind you that having social programs and laws that benefit the working class is not socialism.

          • Micromot@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Maybe saying socialist is an overstatement i just think that our current system is a step in the right direction as there are laws in place to reduce exploitation and improve the situation for workers. It is still very flawed and i think it could be better but there are many places where it is bad, the US for example

      • phobiac@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        17
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yeah the main lesson I’ve taken away from the last decade of cryptocurrency instability, NFTs, and things like algorithmically generated judicial sentencing guidelines that perpetuated the existing racial biases while making them seem more legitimate because “the computer can’t be wrong” is that we should run our whole society with them.

        • sturlabragason@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Sure.

          Algocracy uses algorithms to inform societal decisions, while Blockchain is a transparent, decentralized ledger system. People often confuse cryptocurrencies with the underlying Blockchain technology, even though they serve different purposes.

          Comparing the challenges of Algocracy to the volatility of cryptocurrencies is like assessing the potential of online commerce based on early internet connectivity issues.

          Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design. With meticulous design and continuous oversight, the potential of Algocracy can be fully realized.

          • floofloof@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design.

            You can’t design a neutral algorithm. The algorithm has to be designed to optimize something. What that thing is is a political and philosophical decision. Government by algorithm is indirect government by whoever’s values shaped the design of the algorithm.

            Algorithms can no doubt assist in regulating systems but they don’t resolve any of the deeper political issues about values, goals and what constitutes improvement.

            Of course, tech bros will claim they can sell you a neutral algorithm that will run things better than people, but that’s just because tech bros’ political philosophy is basically “just do it my way because obviously I’m smarter than you.” They won’t even notice how their algorithms are biased, because they’re not even interested in that question.

      • vreraan@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        Surely that citydao wasn’t created by someone with profit motives and not aware that in a few years it will be another worthless and abandoned NFT-bullshit.