idk man I just need to vent i guess
my employer “provides” health insurance in exchange for my time and labor, and for that great privilege they take $600 out of my paycheck every month (covers me, my wife, and our 1yo son)
that’s half our monthly mortgage payment; it’s 2/3 our monthly grocery bill
why?
Universal healthcare would probably not cost you that much with taxes. But instead a private company gets to reap all the benefits of your money.
And then deny your access to lifesaving health care, don’t forget that part.
Private Company gets all your money and then gets to say “no, you really don’t need that operation, rub some dirt on it and take a salt pill” and then proceed to Scrooge McDuck into a pile of money.
Sometimes your medical team decides you need a procedure, but some guy with a spreadsheet or an AI that is wrong 90% of the time decides you don’t.
The concept that you have coverage for a thing and it gets denied is baffling to me. How are Americans not trading in the streets over the systems your parents built?
Because the system of oppression is so perfect here that nobody dares step out of line. The average American is 1 month away from being homeless. And you can be fired from your job at any time for any reason. Take time off work to protest and an asshole cop decides to arrest you? You get fired from your job, then you get a criminal record making it almost impossible to find a new job. With zero safety net that’s it, you’re on the street for the rest of your life.
“You should be grateful, peasant. That’s a good looking kid you got there. It would be a shame if she got sick. What were you saying, again, I just got a notice about a stock price increase.”
As an employer I would LOVE to be shed of this system. I have no reason to be involved in the health care of my employees, and given the state of health care in America there is literally no upside for my business. It’s all bad.
Unfortunately our system requires it, though. If I didn’t offer health care and instead just increased the base salary I wouldn’t be competitive. People would think I was trying to pull a fast-one on them, and few people in America know how to get health care on their own. It’s a mess.
Our “lords” have already told us why things are the way they are if you look at the “reasoning” behind why the Senate let the child tax credits expire.
“People wouldn’t have an incentive to work.”
They literally use healthcare to chain you to a job. I have 3 coworkers that I know of off hand that have all said they literally are only working here for the health insurance…
This system can go to hell.
“People wouldn’t have an incentive to work.”
As someone who lives in a place with universal healthcare, I would like to tell these people that many people here still work.
You know, food and shelter are also good incentives.
Hell, luxuries are all that are needed to work. If all my basic needs were taken care of I would still work because I like to travel and drink.
“People wouldn’t have an incentive to work.”
That is just their attempt at rationalization. The real reason is much simplier: money, money, money. Lobbyists, Super PACs and the donor class own our politicians. The rich pay for their political campaigns and bribe our politicians in some interesting and creative ways. For example, giving a politician a million directly is illegal, but if he writes a book and then you have the SuperPAC buy a million copies of the politicians book that is somehow legal.
Can PACs accept foreign money? Or does a politician have to run a little SPAC scam to accept that?
Well the problem is that you are viewing it from a “normal person” vantage… you need to think of your employees as indentured servants, basically slaves you don’t get to actually whip.
Once you get the proper Capitalist vantage point, you realize you can use this “benefit” to squeeze the life out of your employees, specially any of them with Chronic conditions or just a family, as they are hostages to the Health Care you provide!
Extra painful that the current system is biased towards large employers. Easier to absorb that overhead if the business is large.
That’s right. For a company greater than 50 employees the insurance companies charge a group rate that is the same for everyone. Fewer than 50 and each employee is billed on their and/or their family’s merits.
Because I have fewer than 50 employees, most of my family employees use their spouse’s insurance from larger company than mine. And there’s little I can do about it.
For my small business I’m just as screwed over as the employee. If I hire a guy I can’t (and don’t want to) ask him him or her health questions, but because I pay half of my employee’s insurance I’m hiring with an unknown cost component. That employee might have a costly pre-existing condition for all I know.
i get the feeling that society really doesnt want to spend the money to give people healthcare.
It’s 2 fold, one party doesn’t want to takeaway private insurance because of the donor money. The other doesn’t want “inferior” people to get health care.
A double edge sword unfortunately.
Well, at least here in the USA, we already are spending the money. Getting worse results than the rest of the world and spending more money on it. Because private health insurance is a joke and we’re all the punchline.
Most Americans want universal healthcare. The problem is that we have a broken and corrupt system where our politicians are bought and owned by the donor class and lobbyists
I “want” universal healthcare… but I know the government will screw it up. There is just no winning.
My options at my last 3 jobs have all been more than 1400/month.
Do you think your taxes would go up $17k per year if America got universal healthcare? I’m going to say probably not.
I’d gretly prefer universal healthcare.
Insurance is extra expensive when you have a family in the US. I’m single and my monthly cost is less than $100 a month. Having a family is more expensive for everything.
But WHy dON’t YoUNg poPLE wANT tO sTarT a FaMILy?!?!
Mine is about the same for family coverage, and the shocking thing is that it’s pretty good relative to the market – my previous employer was about ~100/mo cheaper for an equivalent HDHP plan, but I’ve seen much, much worse.
Honestly, though, even more than the cost (having run the numbers, the tax I’d pay in a European country to cover similar services is about the same, all things considered) is the sheer level of friction that insurers inject into the healthcare system. You have to get a referral to a specialist even if you know you need to see one. You have to get insurance authorization for specialty treatments. You have to think about deductibles and out-of-pocket-maximums, and Lord help you if you start having complex medical problems around the end of the year and the maximums reset in the middle of your treatment!
We pay out of pocket for a direct primary care pediatrician for our kid (on top of his insurance, to cover any meds or emergencies) and the fact that there’s no insurance to deal with means that it’s vastly easier to get a hold of her to get a medical opinion whenever there’s a bad bump or a strange rash that needs a professional opinion. It’s shocking to see how things could be if insurance companies and PBMs and for-profit hospital networks hadn’t inserted themselves in between patients and doctors, with a sole eye towards making sure they pay out at little as humanly possible while maybe keeping patients alive in the process.
America is a corrupt capitalist hellscape. It’s why I don’t have kids, only go to the doctor when shit happens and never pay the bill.
What a shitty, selfish way to treat the medical people who care for you when you’re sick.
They still get paid, what on earth are you talking about?
Why don’t you ask them if they mind you stiffing them after they take care of you?
What a shitty way to treat people.
They get paid regardless. It’s a crooked system, some of us don’t survive without being equally so, especially from companies and entities that barely know you exist to begin with.
Debt goes to collectors, they come calling, I ignore those too. Credit score in the 600’s. I’ll never afford a home so I don’t really care and I buy junk cars with cash from Facebook.
If America is going to be a greedy capitalist shithole then I’m going to be the stingiest turd in the toilet. They want to get paid for healthcare, take it out of my taxes and make it a proper utility like an actual first world country.
You could probably do better buying insurance off the ACA marketplace, even without premium assistance if your job didn’t offer insurance.
I pay the same and it covers next to nothing. I’m done paying my medical bills. If they want money I’m insured figure it out with them and don’t bother me. I have insurance so my child can. If I could I’d have just them covered. It’s significantly cheaper for me not to have it
I would opt out of your employer health insurance, and go fully private with a policy in your own name. There’s no way in hell that that premium is real.
You are getting down voted because you said the dirty private word, but you are entirely right.
Id say the bigger problem might be your employer Heath insurance company can tell you no to opting out.
Until you realize that in your praised Europe with the universal healthcare this is presicely how it works.
If you want cash instead of benefits go become a contractor.
I can’t possibly see where on an antiwork sub I could even begin to explain why employment laws and health insurances exist instead of everyone just getting plain cash for their labor. If you don’t know that, you’re not qualified to be antiwork.
Is this a swing at Europe? Because universal healthcare takes €50-60 per month in taxes, around €15-25 per month that you must pay to your personal healthcare and there’s a €10 per month “hospitalia” that pays for hospital services like rooms. If you get into an operation which would cost $50 000 in the US, in Europe that would cost €2500 here plus €500 for a room, you get around €2000 back from your personal healthcare that’s subsidized by the universal healthcare, and you get €400+ back for the room.
I really don’t get your take, I’m antiwork when it’s abouts profits but I love paying these taxes.
I’m from a place in Europe. Had complicated surgery recently. I technically made money from it. And once the scar and minor disability is calculated, I’ll probably make even more. To put things in perspective, I mean.
Disability and “long term health care” often have their own type of government spending. It might look like you’re making money but it’s the same as getting unemployment benefits. Although in this case they are justified by your health instead. These costs are considered to be paid by past and future taxes.
If it’s anything else you’re pretty lucky, but it can quickly turn into minor fraud. If you are working and are getting a lot of money, be sure that they know you are getting this money.
It’s not a lot of money and certainly not worth it. I’m just making a point that I financially go positive rather than negative. The money comes from a private insurer that makes money every year. I’m pretty sure they are on top of things. This is not some advanced insurance scam; it’s the realisation that an accident is something to be compensated for and not punished for. No-one wants to be in an accident (edge cases blah blah).
I see. I wasn’t claiming it was a scam or anything.
You’re kidding me, right? I lived in a few of those “best healthcare in the world” countries, and I was paying 400-600€ per month. Forcefully. By law.
The healthcare costs afterwards are much lower than in the US exactly because this system exists. But neither OP nor you have even the basics right on how and why those markets are shaped to be this way.
Instead you live in a fairytale world where in the US an evil employer deducted 600$ from your paycheck to pay for your health insurance, while in some universal healthcare countries it’s just “free”.
So, funnily enough, there’s as usual here an army of lemmings upvoting your BS and downvoting me. While the healthcare in Europe is affordable specifically because the government forcefully takes about 600$ out of your paycheck and gives to the insurance. And neither you nor the employer have any chance to say no to that.
Damn it’s really that cheap?
It’s decent and affordable but not cheap. The US is just extremely expensive. I read that hospitals in the US even bill pills that are given to you, separately, at 50 times the actual price or something.
I really wish healthcare would be affordable and possible for everybody because not only does it improve lives medically, but also psychologically as you know they are there to help you.
They pay $600 a month for insurance and STILL pays doctor bills. I also pay 600 a month and my yearly max out of pocket is $2500 per family member. In the EU the pay nothing other than taxes(maybe some small fees but not much at all) And from searching a few websites the max you will pay in Germany is 7.3 percent of your income capped at €62100 for a max monthly insurance cost of €377.77($420.70 USD)
P.s. you pulled 7% number out of your ass. It’s exactly as I explained the “visible” part of the deductible. The actual number is precisely double, again as explained.
So, in total you might have a salary of 50k and you’ll see 300 being deducted every month. Even though in fact the employer will have to also pay 300 to the insurance, making your actual gross salary 53.5k, and the actual deductible to be 600€.
I wanna see Lemmy’s face when they’ll realize this is not a singular incident and with all the various social security systems and taxes combined they’ll end up with receiving on their bank account some 40-45% of what left their employer bank account to keep them employed.
But oh boy “600$ got deducted, corporate fascism, our USA is broken, please go look at the universal healthcare countries it’s soo much better, I promise”.
It actually is if you’re poor. And if you’re somewhere, where your deductible is 600$, you would’ve been much better off with an American system. Might not be ideal from a societal point of view, but you as an individual who has the means to use a 600$/m private insurance will absolutely be much better off.
And, so, believe it or not, Americans on those private corporate plans get a much, much better healthcare than folks in the same salary range enjoying the universal healthcare.
And if you don’t understand how, why, and what’s at play behind regulated and deregulated health insurance markets, then you do not qualify to be anti-work.
So, you’re saying anyone in Germany with an above average salary is forced to pay 400$ out of their salary for their healthcare insurance? Isn’t this exactly what OP complains about, or can you not logic at all?
Did I or OP say anything about out-of-pocket? Do you actually know anything about the insurance market and do you realize that your co-pays are only that low because this forced system exists?
looks like it’s not only our US friends who knows jack shit about how universal healthcare works
When I do my annual determination of the best plan, I always look at my total cost if I maxed out copays and deductible. Even as an old fart, HSA looks incredibly cheap because the premiums are so low. How ever, in many circumstances I don’t reach my out of pocket limits.
Why don’t you try? I’m sure you’d do a bang-up job explaining.
It’s kinda like this: you walk dogs for a living, you vote left hoping that they’ll come to power and print a lot of money and just pay for everything you need, one day your dream comes true and you wake up in Venezuela.
And as to why all sane countries have a forced universal healthcare insurance that will deduct from your paycheck exactly as OP described, and will do as an obligation by law, you can consider me copy-pasting this thing as an explanation:
It is definitely bullshit, but your employer isn’t a winner here either, they’re also paying out $600 a month for your $1200/month health insurance.
The real problem here is why the fuck does health insurance cost as much as housing in this country?
More like why do both cost so much? Housing is dramatically cheaper in the good countries.
The way capitalist free markets are supposed to self-regulate is by customers refusing to buy goods and services which are too expensive. But when the alternative to buying those goods and services is dying in the street, understandably people can’t reasonably refuse.
Capitalism. 40% of Apple’s total revenue goes to shareholders just for existing. Latestagecapitalism is like having a severe tape worm infection. The rich take most of the wealth we create without doing any of the work
Leverage mattering more than value sucks.
The biggest kick in the balls is that insurance still doesn’t cover shit. There’s still co-pays, tons of things that aren’t covered, out of network, maximum use of services, and anything large will almost certainly be denied by default. The co-pays alone are often as much as the service should cost.
Health insurance is a parasite. Profiting (massively) by being a gatekeeper to good health is pure evil.
It’s call extortion, and it’s been around since the dawn of time. Some cultures have done something about it, but since The US was founded on selfishness and greed, it will probably never happen here (Universal Care, that is.)
Dr. Glaucomflecken’s Youtube Skit series on US healthcare has really shown me how fucked up it is…
Sure, the Canadian government is stealing my paycheque, yadda yadda yadda. Still my health, dental, life supplemental insurance plan costs $800/year and most routine stuff like checkup exams, basic drugs, basic procedures, is free or is in the tens of dollars that I need to pay.
I haven’t been to a dentist in 8 years. I’ve only recently been in a hospital because my back gave out and I was stuck on the floor. Dont let anyone take away that healthcare, dont become like us. This is misery for no reason. My fucken teeth ache.
I cracked off a piece of my teeth but it doesn’t like cause immediate pain and my last visit cost me several hundred dollars even with my “dental plan” that my employer didn’t provide me a policy number for. And I still need to save up for my wisdom teeth to be pulled cause they are rotting in my head and cause my jaw to lock up.
Yeah the world doesn’t realize how fucked the US is for health of its citizens.
Sorry to hear that bud. It’s the reason I have dentures. It’s literally cheaper to have all, or most, of your teeth pulled and buy dentures than it is to have 2 or more root canals and crowns. It’s outrageous, and obscene.
Its unnecessary, we have the technology and the means to just help.
Line must go up or rich people angry.
Or more. A lot more.
I pay $700/mon for a family for health only, not including prescriptions, dental, or vision
Employer contribution is $1600/mon
That’s insane
I’m surprised large companies haven’t pushed back on it.
I didn’t know much about that side of the insurance pyramid, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything about the companys part fighting it in the news.
It usually looks like cutting plans, and the adoption of high deductible plans
Or more.
Just doing mine now (open enrollment time). No changes to what I had this year, but had a 20% price increase to just under $600.
My employer is paying $3200 for my coverage (family plan, to be clear). Companies should be in wide support of universal healthcare.
ACA institutionalized the health insurance industry as having some broad legally protected powers to fleece the American public. And there is no recourse or alternative besides getting healthcare outside of the country.
Pharma industry is the second parasite that enjoys similar legal protections.
Medical Community sold their asses but especially doctor types… Decent doctors don’t survive anyway, but this is standard for any industry. Worker needs protects if we expect them to do their job properly… Ain’t nobody got energy to battle the orphan crushing machine 40 hours per week
Then, we have federal government that’s essentially enabling all of this due to the above clowns capturing regime whores in congress.
This is the standard regime model and most industries are going this way if not already there…
Oil, banking… Tech is trying it too, the 🤡 companies “want to be regulated”
Corpos like having a blank check from the state to fuck the peasants.
It ain’t just US issues, apparently UK parasites are getting that spot quicker than the US nepo babies.
The fuckening will only gets worse.
It was already like that before the ACA.
ACA formalized the corruption. And price increases accelerated too.
Captive Audience. They can’t leave, metaphorically. Everyone should remember ACA was created by a Republican think tank, for exactly that reason. Extortion.
they can go to a foreign country and pay cash, and it will be cheaper with hotel and travel 🤡
but only the “better” people have the cash flow for such “operations” as always… so i would say that vast majority of American slave force in fact: can’t leave, physically.
I’m sure Trump’s concepts of a plan will fix all these problems
Sure. Let granny die in a ditch, just like the good ol’ days.
Here comes the political brainrot…
You do understand that these discussions can be had with out left right circle jerk?
Unfortunately, it can’t, because politicians in this country can literally be bribed by individuals and corporations to pass legislation in their favor. Studies have shown over and over again that Universal Healthcare is absolutely cheaper than paying premiums, but it will probably never happen. Because of greed.
best we got is ACA is which is legalized corruption and extortion.
nothing will change as long people vote for the regime.
Why should we not call out the problem when we all want a solution? Conservatives have been the primary henchmen for the ultra-wealthy for generations now.
Neoliberals and Republicans are all conservative shitbags who have ruined our lives for profit. They are all worthy of death, according to some clever French revolutionaries.
Conservatives have been the primary henchmen for the ultra-wealthy for generations now.
Naive
Yes, you are, or disingenuous. You are part of the problem.
You understand “both sides bad” perpetuates the rot? Of course I was just being sarcastic about the Dotard but if we’re ever going to get universal healthcare passed we need to drive the Wrong Wing out of Congress.
Both sides are bad in fact… You got a lot to learn how the US regime functions my dear.
Vote for either side is vote for the regime.
Vote for anybody else is to deny this regime legitimacy.
Fuck Putin.
No, vote for anyone else is to confirm the GOP’s corruption of democratic principles continues. Take one look at the third-party candidates and even entire “parties” that are actually GOP plants. Destruction of the whole system is their true goal because it makes a fascist takeover easier. Too bad you won’t get anything from them even though you’re helping them.
We have been suffering the two parties taking turns fucking us for decades.
Vote for either party is the vote to support this regime.
Vote for anyone else is letting the system know you are not playing.
“GOP wins” is not a fucking platforms mate… If y’all want people to vote for Democrats, make decmorats do something for the people.
This clowns can’t take proper position omnthe genocide… JFC
Some companies are self insured and merely pay a health insurance company to administer the plan. They take all the excess and dump it into an investment account where they can profit off of the excess. It’s possible that their employer is coming out ahead.
Housing costs more than $2000 a month now 😭
To be fair, health insurance is equally expensive in Europe. We just discount it a lot for low income families and above average pays a lot more to substitute that missing money.
health insurance is equally expensive in Europe.
Source?
My paystub :'( about 1k in germany
Then that doesn’t sound “equally expensive” if it’s discounted for everyone that needs it discounted.
Not when the option in the US is “then don’t have healthcare”
Full ACK :)
Your employer is likely paying another $600/mo for you as well, and singles/couples working for the company are actually subsiding your threesome.
The insurer-first system a stupid scheme that shouldn’t exist in the first place.
This is correct.
In the US during WW2 employers couldn’t keep employees because of wage competition. This made war production extremely inefficient and slow. The War Labor Board instituted wage ceilings for critical jobs. But, they allowed employers to compete with health benefits. Employment and healthcare became intertwined.
After WW2 the War Labor Board was dissolved and wage ceilings removed. FDR, who’d proposed and implemented The New Deal and led us through WW2, proposed the Second Bill of Rights aka the Economic Bill of Rights:
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Employment
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An adequate income for food, shelter, and recreation
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Farmers’ rights to a fair income
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Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
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Decent housing
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Adequate medical care
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Social security
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Education
This would’ve disaccociated employment and medical care. However, FDR was labeled a socialist and authoritarian, demonized. We the People bought into the propaganda.
That’s how it’s been for eighty years: The leftists propose the same platform FDR did. And, they’re told to shut up for disturbing the idiots running in fear of one bad choice or another. All that’s changed is the efficiency and effectiveness of the hegemony’s propaganda.
big government guy proposed big government solution to unintended consequence of bad decisions by big government, is confused when people don’t want more big government meddling.
the real problem here is that people forgot about what the issue was and how it happened, and years later are clamoring for government to “do something”. and extra unfortunately, at this point it may be too late for any solution other than letting government just take control of all of it; i can’t see any other way to get all the shitty government decisions and interventions rolled back.
The US incarnation of capitalism has obviously failed. I’m all for revolution. But, I’ve no doubt that the vast majority of society would willingly give up their freedom, once again. Humans have been doing the same thing for millennia.
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