Over 100 Israelis have died and more than 900 were injured after rockets were fired from Gaza by Hamas militants, Israeli officials said Saturday.
The Palestinian Health Ministry said 198 were killed in Gaza and at least 1,610 were injured Saturday in retaliatory attacks from Israel.
“We are at war. We will win,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Saturday.
The Israeli Defense Forces earlier declared “a state of alert for war,” according to a statement issued by the IDF.
“Over the past hour, the Hamas terrorist organization launched massive barrages of rockets from Gaza into Israel, and its terrorist operatives have infiltrated into Israel in a number of different locations in the south,” the IDF said early Saturday.
This is awful, and there are no good sides to it. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government’s actions have made this kind of thing inevitable.
A lot of innocent people on both sides will die, nothing will get resolved, and both sides will continue to do horrible things to each other.
This sucks.
Is there a way that a nation can use the same means their oppressor uses to perpetuate apartheid for the purposes of resisting apartheid and not be labeled as “terrorist”?
You’re missing the point. Hamas brutally oppresses its own people, as does Israel’s goverment. This is a predictably violent response from a violent group in retaliation against another violent group, and innocent people in both countries who just want to live their lives will suffer for it.
There are no good guys here. Israel is ultimately at fault for its treatment of Palestine, but that doesn’t excuse Hamas tactics of executing civilians in their homes - tactics that will not work and will not bring anyone to their side.
This is going to be a long, shitty time for a lot of people and nothing will be solved. And that fucking sucks.
Calling the tactic of "executing civilians in their homes” a Hamas tactic carries a lot of water for Israel as they shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings as you type.
as they [Israel] shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings
I didn’t see this part in the linked article. I do not condone Isreal’s treatment of Palestinian civilians, but I haven’t seen any reports like what you wrote. Do you have an additional source so I can read up?
might have been an hour or two before you were typing this actually.
Rest assured though, this wasn’t the only time, here’s another https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-show-israeli-airstrikes-leveling-gaza-apartment-buildings-2021-5?op=1
On a purely practical sense, ending the siege on Gaza would improve the lives of about 2 million people squeezed on a piece of land with a clean water crisis and no medical supplies. Israel, however, is unwilling to take such a step, and the stronger Hamas is, the less likely Israel is to compromise. The reality is grim, not because “either side” won’t budge, but because the situation is becoming increasingly impossible.
I’ve always hated Hamas’ tactics. They could have been a better resistance group, they could have not had an extremist idieology. And they could have stopped gambling with the lives of Gazans. All in all, Israel is an apartheid state and this the result of apartheid and decades of collective trauma.
Palestinians already tried a less extremist path. It didn’t work, they are still mass imprisoned by Israel.
It’s interesting that you mentioned apartheid. Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
Mandela insisted to the end that turning violent was instrumental to actually getting attention. He went on to say this about how ineffectual their non-violent struggle was:
“The hard facts were that 50 years of non-violence had brought the African people nothing but more and more repressive legislation, and fewer and fewer rights.” --Mandela
They were largely ignored internationally while they were peaceful.
I trust his assessment of it over yours any day.
Put another way: How long do you think most people believe the anti-Apartheid struggle went on?
I’d be willing to bet most people have no idea about the decades of resistance to increasingly repressive laws that preceded the escalation. Even those vaguely aware that Mandela’s arrest happened in 1963, after the start of the sabotage operations.
They didn’t get much international support until the 1970’s, and that support was still fringe until the 1980’s, as violence had been ramping up for two decades.
Do you remember all the hijackings that occurred in South Africa in those days? All the hostage taking, and the civilians shot in cold blood? All the bombings of shopping malls and cinemas? No? Neither do I … because they never happened. Even in the face of massive repression, imprisonment, torture and murder of its leaders, the ANC focused their armed struggle on acts of sabotage and avoided as far as possible targeting civilians. They bombed electrical substations and oil refineries. They attacked police stations and military facilities. They never commited the barbaric acts we see today from Hamas. If they had I doubt that I, along with tens of thousands of others, would have marched in the streets demanding the release of Mandela.
You’re moving goalposts. You claimed ANCs attacks were inconsequential, and now you’ve changed your tone to focus on civilian attacks.
Sure, they carried out fewer and smaller civilian attacks than Hamas.
There are absolutely arguments over what the most effective use of violent resistance is, and to be clear I have never claimed that Hamas’ method is particularly effective, and it might very well be entirely counter-productive. What I argued was specifically against this:
Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
But specifically to what you claimed in this latest reply, I do remember the bombing campaign that targeted a range of Wimpy burger joints during lunch hour. I do remember the regular use of limpet mines against sports venues, bus stations, shopping centres and other shops, restaurants. They were regular enough that they are one of the regular features of the 1980’s evening news that was seared into my memory as a child despite growing up half a world away.
The ANC liked to pretend they didn’t target civilians, but in the 90’s applications were made to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee by ANC members who admitted to bombing civilians, and ANC themselves submitted a lengthy list of bombings to the TRC which also included a long list of civilian bombings that they claimed to be “uncertain” who carried out but nevertheless submitted in a longer list of their operations alongside the police and military attacks you mention. These lists are readily available.
Mandela “escaped” being tarnished by this in large part because he was in prison from years before MK escalated from sabotage to bombings, and to this day it’s unclear how much he personally knew, especially about the civilian attacks. It’s clear other members of the ANC leadership, like Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo, knew, however.
Apartheid started in 1948, but segregation had existed for 40 years by then, and the fight for equal rights preceded the formal start of Apartheid.
What is clear with respect to Mandela is that he doubled down on the necessity of violence to his death and was clear that things got worse during ANCs nonviolent fight and first improved when they started fighting back. He held onto that view to his death.
ANC was founded in 1912 as segregation was just ramping up. 36 years after they were founded, Apartheid was passed.
They didn’t start killing until 1976, after 64 years of the world mostly quietly ignoring them as oppression got worse and worse.
1 year after they started killing, the UN finally made the voluntary and ineffectual arms embargo binding. 8 years after they started killing, the disinvestment campaign started seriously hurting the South African economy. 13 years after they started killing, Thatcher called the ANC a terrorist organisation at the Commonwealth summit, but beside having gone from being seen as a harmless nuisance to being called terrorists by both the UK and US governments, they won the struggle 14 years after they took up arms. But 78 years after they started fighting.
As such, I’ll take Mandelas words on the importance of their armed struggle over yours any day.
We can’t do that because holocaust.
I actually now blame mostly Europe and the US by the continuation of the situation in Palestine.
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (too much hate by now, too many assholes on both sides whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US’ and Europe’s treatement of Israel as if it’s a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it’s more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all but hypocrite talkie-talkie (or, worse, taking sides), effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie, the Palace Du Eliseé and the minion-mindset national “leaders” all over Europe.
The reason even we here go around and around in circles ping-ponging blame between both sides is because both sides are dominate by assholes, so of course they both commit disgusting attrocities and there is no way they’ll ever solve it themselves (it’s tit-for-tat-for-tit-for-tat all the way down), so it’s the international community who has the responsability to force them to do it.
Clearly the cycle cannot be broken form the inside (unless by genocide, which seems to be what the Israeli leadership is aiming for), so it’s the refusal of the US and Europe to do the only thing that might solve this - treat Israel just like South Africa was treated during Appartheid and Hamas as a terrorist group (the latter of which they already do, but without he other side of the equation, to pull out the boot of the oppressor, there will keep on being people with nothing to loose that end up with Hamas so it survives ever in the worst conditions) that has kept the cycle of violence going.
No. It will invariably be called terrorism.
ANC carried out terror bombings intentionally targeting civilians too after first trying non-violent protests, then trying sabotage, then targeting military, and not getting results. And they were called terrorists as well despite certainly doing far less harm than the regime they fought, and ignoring that while civilian, the majority of their victims were voters who had an active role in continuing to vote in the regimes engaged in the oppression.
The only way to stop being labeled terrorist is to win the conflict, like the ANC.
This is not a criticising of the ANC, btw… On a personal level I think some of their actions were deplorable, but I also think that it is fundamentally not up to any of us to judge the armed resistance of the oppressed unless we are actively fighting that oppression in better, more effective ways.
In other words: Personally, I think that anyone who is not personally at a minimum engaged in efforts to end Israeli oppression that is likely to right now be achieving more than armed Palestinian resistance has no moral standing to judge their actions.
And nobody here is.
The ANC won by mobilizing world opinion against the South African regime. The armed struggle was inconsequential and contributed nothing to ending apartheid.
Mandela disagreed with you, and maintained to the end that it was essential in mobilizing support. They got little attention until they ramped up.
The engaged in non-violent resistance against increasingly oppressive laws for decades with no support or attention, and achieving nothing. In fact Apartheid was put in place during, not before, that non-violent resistance, that was how little it achieved. The sanctions first started after ANC and others raised the stakes and violence started rattling the regime into escalation that caught attention.
However, whether or not it was effective is irrelevant to the argument I made, which is that unless you provide a better solution, you’re not in a position to judge how they fight back.
Why is this comment being downvoted?
Because people don’t understand that violence is necessary at times.
When you’re violently oppressed for decades while exhausting all peaceful options it gets to a point where you only have violent options left. Especially when the actual govt does fuck all to help you.
The Resistance Française would’ve been labelled “terrorists” by the current standards.
Iranian goverment is celebrating the attack they backed.
Thousands will die from their weapons. Thousands more will be permanently disfigured or injured. Hamas put their HQ right in downtown, so when it got predictably destroyed, it hurt a bunch of civilians.
Not surprising since the Saudis and Israel were finally starting to make up, which Iran hates. But sad nonetheless. I hope the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement, and that Iran gets a better, more peaceful government. But I doubt it.
The PNA seems like the good guys?
No good guys here. Hamas doesn’t seem to serve the Palestinians, they serve their own Jihadist agenda. Isreal remains a fascist apartheid regime which has been systematically killing all Palestinians in a genocide for decades.
There’s action and reaction here.
Murder of civilians celebrated by the whole of their society is not justified by reaction. I suggest you look at some other societies which react to genocidal crimes, for some reference. Most of them don’t do that.
Nah, this was the case with Palestinian Arabs all along. Since their “throw all Jews into the sea” till now.
ANC bombed civilians and their attacks were celebrated by many. The IRA did, and were celebrated by many. ETA did, and were celebrated by many. It is common, and suggesting it’s unique to Palestinians is pure racism.
EDIT: Ah, looked at one of your other comments that were equally awful. Block incoming.
I don’t think you know the difference between collateral damage and massacre. Or maybe you know that, just pretend to be a moron. I can accept your pretense, but not your point.
Are you suggesting it is not true that the groups he mentioned intentionally targeted civilians?
Perhaps you’re not old enough to remember the ANC bombing campaign against Wimpy restaurants, mainly timed to go off during lunchtime to maximise damage.
The Church Street bombing it’s reasonable to argue collateral damage for, but a burger chain doesn’t strike me as a legitimate military or government target you can play the “collateral damage” game with.
Maybe it was just ignorance of history that made you single out Palestinians.
OK. I don’t think IRA and ANC had that nasty habit of raping their victims and parading their mutilated bodies, or lynching them, and in general these were not genocidal in ideology while Hamas is. Is that sufficiently clear for you to comprehend?
FFS, I’m Armenian and I could give Israel another try at existing after turning it into nuclear ash, but defending these animals is just vile.
And now you’re making an entirely different point and evading addressing the gross generalization you made where you blamed not just Hamas but all Palestinians for the crimes of some and implied they were uniquely bad.
Your interpretation is fine. I’ll skip your “suggestions”, thanks.
Hamas gave being legitimate a try. Israel blocked their accession in the West Bank after they won the election. They were never given a chance to serve Palestinians.
I wouldn’t really expect them to idly stand by and let an organization whose charter is essentially “Death to Israel, death to all Jews” to come into power
There cannot be a peaceful coexistence between Israel and Hamas because (and their charter has a section explicitly devoted to this) Hamas does not want it, when they talk of “ending the occupation”, they don’t just mean of Palestine
Funny thing. If we used that logic then we’d all be dead. No war would ever end but with the complete annihilation of the loser and with nukes that means everyone.
Furthermore, PR line or not, Hamas was elected. Interfering to stop them from taking power is an act of war itself. Justify it how you want but Israel hasn’t given peace a chance in a long time.
When one side very explicitly states “there will be no peace, we will keep fighting until one of us is completely wiped out”, I struggle to see why the world should not oblige, and while the state of Israel is definitely not perfect it’s not very difficult for me lean towards the side that’s still managing to perform roof knocking over the complete and utter barbarism displayed by the Hamas terrorists over the fast few days
That’s funny because Israel has been building international law and the laws of war for decades. Roof Knocking doesn’t absolve them of using Israeli law in occupied areas, shooting medical personal at unarmed protests, bombing UN facilities, or using White Phosphorus shells that airburst.
I’m not saying Hamas is fighting clean. I’m saying PR doesn’t make policy.
How is israel apartheid? Over 20% of israelis are muslim arabs and they are normal citizens just like jews.
Fuck islamist terrorism. Fuck Hamas.
I agree, but also fuck apartheid and fuck Israel
Fuck them both basically, but for different reasons.
was the warsaw ghetto uprising terrorism? gtfoh liberal
There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of “peace plan that works if you think about it a bit”.
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
The sad thing is that the people dying for this usually aren’t anywhere remotely near the level of the people that have power to lose or keep. Dying for the sake of rich assholes all the way down
Yeah, there’s another quote in Rick and Morty: “Everyone is trying to take over the galaxy, the trick is to be left alone by whoever wins.”
I think it’s sad how Gaza is apparently blockaded by Israel. I’m not sure if the people there are literally being held captive, but if that’s the case then I can definitely understand their frustration and the lengths they would go to in order to fight back.
If they’re allowed to leave, I think they should’ve just done that. It’s never easy, but unfortunately would be the best option in an imperfect world.
*looks west to Egypt. hmmm
The only way that is solve is from the outside.
Which means treating Israel as Appartheid South Africa was treated, and Hamas as a terrorist group.
However only the last part is done, so the result is every day in Palestine people are born who will live under the boot of Israel and eventually feel they have nothing to loose because of Israel and Israelis, and join Hamas to fight the oppressor, because it’s only way to do something with a lifetime of anger and because even being part of a Hamas deemed a terrorist organisation all over the world and limited in their action, status and wealth by it, is still better than a “nothing to loose” situation.
The refusal of Europe and the US to also force the one with the most to lose - Israel - to pull back the boot that’s making all those “nothing to loose, desperate and angry” alongside their attempt at making Hamas an unappeling option is what has kept the cycle of violence going.
The blood is mainly on the hands of the US leaders and a number of European leaders because they’re the only ones who could stop this (since they’re the only ones with the power to stop both sides at the same time, which is the only way to sort this out) and they most certainly have the kind of bright and well informed advisers who would have pointed it out to them, and instead have endorsed Israel’s strategy of “tire the Palestineans till they give up and leave”, in other words, endorsing genocide.
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This. Peace cannot come unless the civilians on both sides are loudly and forcefully willing to die rather than kill civilians on the other side. The problems can only be solved on an individual level.
If one day someone comes to your house, the one you were born, the same house where your father was born, and his father before him. And starts killing, raping, torturing, executing, bulldozing the houses were your cousins lives, they don’t let you go to your sacred places, they don’t let you even move from the concentration camps and the walls they have erected.
What would you do? You fight, even if you lose you will fight, even if the world sees the injustice but simply doesn’t care, you will still fight, for them you are a terrorist, but for your people you are a freedom fighter, fighting against invaders.
I would agree with this, except that afaik both groups have a legitimate historical/religious claim to the territory. Additionally, you’re basically saying that Hamas is justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed people. I was sympathetic until they made the Las Vegas shooting look like a minor scuffle.
Seriously, I can sympathize with the frustration up to the point where suddenly murdering civilians is ok when “the good guys” are doing it.
Material conditions my ass, if it’s wrong for one it’s wrong for all.
And before any Hamaboos show their asses,
انا امريكاني فالاسطيني، جدي كن من بيتلحم،
My kin are not your shield for endorsing the same acts you hold up to demonize those you hate you Bougeyevik hypocrites.
Additionally, you’re basically saying that Hamas is [justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed
The fact the Israel state contribute to the creation of those monsters, you can’t expect the hate to just disappear.
I’m sorry to say, but this is how guerilla warfare goes. Sometimes civilians are casualties.
Did those civilians do anything to deserve it? Usually no. In this case though, they did. Some were already there, and they were responsible for starting the civil war by accepting to split the country. Others weren’t there, but came after that - trampling on another country’s ashes and disregarding its original citizens.
What are you going to do when civilians move into your home and declare it is theirs? Consider them civilians? Consider them innocents?
What would you do?
I would not beat, rape, and murder innocent people. That seems like a low bar to clear, right? Attacking military targets and personnel might be morally justified, but certainly not what they did over the weekend.
How many of the “terrorists” (the Islamic ones, not the Judaic ones) were actually from the oppressed populations, though? There are a lottttttt of people in that region that hate the Israeli government…Not sure how many of the displaced peoples you’re telling “this isn’t the right way to avenge violent state oppression” are actually participating in the fighting.
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Oh please thats an absurd hot take.
If the “fighting” means doing the exact same crimes to other innocents that is not making you the good guys.
Believe it or not, but the world isn’t simply comprised of goodies and baddies. We don’t live in a Marvel movie.
His point is that if you want international support don’t go around murdering innocent people then parade their bodies around.
‘settlers’ aren’t innocent, colonizer
Israel is doing a genocide. Palestinians fighting back are absolutely not doing the same crimes.
Nah, man. If they cited all those things, or more importantly the complete stifling of Gazans’ ability to prosper or flourish today, that would be one thing. What did they cite instead? The desecration of the Al-Aqsa mosque. That is more important to them than the apartheid. Fuck Hamas. They’re accomplishing nothing more than the death of Palestinians and more suffering. And they just empowered the most right wing, unpopular government that Israel’s ever had, one that Israelis were divided against. Hamas and the Iranian regime need to be eradicated. They are hurting any chance at Palestinian freedom and equality and right to prosperity. And they’re just causing more and more every day normal Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian suffering. This Iranian regime supports the tyranny of the Syrian government over the Sunnis (and its use of chemical weapons against them), Russia’s terrorist attacks on civilians in Ukraine and the invasion of that country in general, the complete undermining of the Lebanese government by Hezbollah, and the complete overthrow of the Yemeni government by a similarly tyrannical group in Yemen. And it uses of rape and sexual violence and murder against men and women protesting the death of a woman caused by the morality police and the oppression of women by the regime.
I think the only way to accomplish either a true one state democratic nation that honors Israel-Palestine as the home of Judaism or a two state solution, is boycott and divestment (because there is no way to peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience to achieve freedom and equality (they murdered a journalist and nothing came of it) and there’s no way to win militarily). It worked with the apartheid government in South Africa, and hopefully it will work with Israel.
Hamas are absolutely headbanging murderous zealots committing a lot of atrocities right now. But if you herd people up, deprive them of basic liberties, brutalize & kill a bunch of them, and steal their land at gunpoint and then you can hardly act all shocked that a bunch of them are radicalized and go on a rampage. Doesn’t matter if we’re talking what Israel has done to Palestinians or what the United States did to Native Americans. Maybe the lesson to learn here, is don’t do those things. But I expect that Israel will pound Gaza committing its own atrocities as payback and the same thing will happen again in another decade.
As a side note, if you want to spot the Press that are at least trying to be neutral, you can see how they refere to the Hamas people that inflitrated Israel:
- The neutral Press will call them something like “guerrilas” (same as, for example, they would refer to the FARC types in Colombia if they attacked a city), “militants” or “infiltrators”.
- The biased Press will call them “terrorists”
They are terrorists. That’s literally what they are. The fact that attacked an evil fascist state’s city doesn’t change that.
I’m happy that everybody who kills people to terrify the rest into doing what they want are consistently called terrorists.
So both Hamas and the Israeli state.
As actual and clear acts of “killing people to terrify the rest do what they want”, like bombing of hospitals, murdering of journalists and killing children throwing stones at the armored bulldozers razing their homes, all commited by one side, have consistently never been described as “terrorism” (even though they match the definition), it’s a pretty good indication of the bias by a media outlet when they now describe the entirety of the military incursion from one side and all its participants as “terrorism” even though they refrained to call actual acts of “killing people to terrify the rest do what they want” from the other side as “acts of terror” and those who executed them as “terrorists”.
The unbiased thing to do is to consistently describe all “attacks meant to incite terror for the purposed of making the rest do what you want” (such as Hamas’ terrorists murdering people at a dance party, and Iraeli Army terrorists bombing hospitals and executing journalists and children) as “terror attacks” and those who executed them as “terrorists”.
Israel can’t be called terrorism because terrorism must be—by definition—unlawful
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Emphasis mine.
As Israel did their deeds outside internationally recognized Israeli territory - so outside the internationally recognized jurisdiction of their courts - hence were Israeli Law does not apply.
So those deeds were unlawful (no matter how much Israeli Law is rigged to say otherwise), and even by that twisted definition you selected of “terrorism” that defines it so that state-sponsered terror attacks on a nation’s own soil do not count as “terrorism”, Israel’s military attacks on civilians anywhere outside the internationally recognized borders of Israel (so including Gaza) for the purpose of intimidating the population are still terrorism because the Law that does apply there says they’re unlawful.
Wars are by definition lawful. Sorry you’re wrong
It’s also not a twisted definition. It’s the literal dictionary definition that all countries use when defining terrorism.
And no, if war time acts were not lawful, all war is terrorism which it isn’t so again you’re wrong.
Sure, there is no such thing as the Geneva Convention and there are no such things as War Crimes and its all above board if the people controlling power in the country doing the deeds tell their parliamentarians to write down that “it’s all legit!” in their own country’s legislation.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
The Israel state was created thanks to the influence of wealthy Jews.
A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view
Until your guest started asking for more land, more control, and ultimately doesn’t want yo share with you but wants the things you have.
The Jewish people who were brought to Palestine in the 40s were not being exterminated by the Palestinians. The Jewish people illegally collected guns while they were there and forced the Palestinians out of their homes and their country.
If you go a little further back in history you’ll discover some pretty heavy historical claims to the land by the Jewish people. Just to be clear, I consider “historical claim” to be the most bullshit geopolitical argument in existence. I’m merely pointing out the fallacy in claiming Palestinians have claim, but Jews do not. Palestine wasn’t even a country until it was established when Israel was established. It was just a bunch of nomads moving between various borders.
Just curious, if some fascists came to your house citing historical claims to your land, how much would you care about the validity of that claim? How about when they burn your house down, kill your family, and arrest you for objecting? I truly, deeply would not give a flying fuck who lived nearby my house 300 years ago.
Have you asked the Jews that question? You might discover why they keep fighting over the land.
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How much further back is a “little further”? My grandmother was one of the people who fled in 1948. The place her grandparents also lived. You’re talking about what 300 years ago? 400? More? Forgive me if I care very little about a claim to a land that is older than Shakespeare.
I don’t care about a “historical claim” I care about the people who were living in the land and were forcebly ousted in a time frame where the people who were originally ousted are still alive.
Also they were not “nomads” you fuckin racist. My great grandparents had land, a home, a community that were all taken from them.
You’re making an arbitrary claim as though it’s objective. Why is displacement in 1948 justification for historical claim, but expulsion in 1917 not? Beginning 1914 during WW1, many Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Ottoman authorities as enemy nationals, since they had immigrated from countries now at war with the Ottoman Empire. In 1917, the Ottoman authorities carried out the Tel Aviv and Jaffa deportation, expelling the entire Jewish civilian populations of Tel Aviv and Jaffa. Many deportees subsequently died from hunger and disease. Surely those Jews have just as much claim to live in Israel as the Palestinians displaced by the 1947 UN partition plan.
I’m sure it’s as straightforward as you make it to be.
It is. You really don’t think so?
It’s not. History never is and it’d be worth understanding how we got to this place.
The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 is a good place to start. Essentially much of Palestine was misappropriated to Ottoman bureaucrats and the Ottoman state. The Jewish National Fund purchased portions of this land and leased it to Jewish settlers who kicked the Arabs out with the cooperation of their Ottoman landlords. Legal, but unjust, and I have to imagine most of the Jewish settlers were as ignorant as the Arabs were to the fact that their land had been sold out from under them.
What if it was a tornado? Do you still fight it to your last standing men or do you accept the fact that you can’t win?
I find the timing of this suspicious, given there’s rumours the negotiations between the US and SA are in their final stages.
If SA is about to throw Palestine under the bus, as is rumoured, that could explain the timing.
You’re on point, Hezbollah released a statement backing up that claim, a warning for “normalization”.
But how would this attack do anything to discourage Saudi Arabia from signing that treaty?
It wouldn’t. That’s the point. Having Hamas do that seems like a perfect excuse to throw palestine under the bus. Which they would do with the agreement, anyhow. Now they have a reason.
Ah, I see what you mean, but I don’t think I agree. There’s no relevant party that is opposed to this attack, opposed to the treaty, and important enough to justify the risk of getting caught.
Iran trying to get the first move advantage in what they’d deam the inevitable opening of yet another proxy war with KSA
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
It’s a violent revolution to extinction. All the more political capital for the Netanyahu government to rapidly encroach.
Well that’s not gonna be good for anybody
It’s a gift to the Yahoo.
How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don’t think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It’s a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It’s a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can’t protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You’re forgetting the key aspect – they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they’re going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That’s good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It’s also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they’re scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they’d attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Not surprisingly, I do agree with your perspective: They want Israeli to attack. They want to
chancechange the status quo.They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
When you say ‘many Palestinians’, I would say those are the ones who live in the West Bank, controlled by Fatah. Fatah made acceptable deals with Israeli, and somenow their live are getting better, more survivable. But Hamas doesnt agree with these deals. They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period. And the people of Gaza supported this POV and they elected Hamas in the first place, which means they are ready to suffer the consequences when giving the support.
Palestinians are divided into two fractions. In some ways, the attack could be an attempt to reunite and change it back to one.
They have a very narrow mindset which is: No deals with the Israel, period
Hmm, I’ve heard that before, with slightly different phrasing: “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”.
It seems like a good view.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn’t they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel’s brutal actions against Palestinians didn’t crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They’ve attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It’s part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
The only options are be genocided or be genocided quicker if there’s no fear of retaliation. They’re choosing to go out on their own terms.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them
Sure, until Israel overreacts and starts a war that kills tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Then people’s sympathies will go back to the underdog in the fight, which is the Palestinians.
Yay…?
A combination of this and a religion that brainwashed them into thinking that if they die while trying to murder other people that they will go to paradise and have a bunch of little girls as wives.
Man you’ve got a real hard on for Hamas.
We are trying to analyze and make sense of the situation, and all you can add to the discussion is by attacking me ad hominem? Thanks.
I don’t think there’s any arguing with the stone cold fact that Israel has killed more civilians than Hamas.
I never argued that.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry… They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
Are they a victim of bullying when their official policy is the destruction of their neighbors culture?
They are a victim of bullying when they’ve been under decades of illegal occupation. Hamas is an awful organization, but it was only formed as a result of ongoing brutal oppression. When you keep punching someone in the face, sooner or later they’ll start punching back, and sometimes they’ll fight dirty. That doesn’t make them good, but the bully is still the one who kicked things off in the first place and the one who should be first and foremost held responsible for the situation they created.
Hamas individual victims get my full sympathy; they’re victims of both Hamas and Israel. Israel as a state does not - without their brutal oppression, extensive war crimes, and apartheid regime, there wouldn’t be any Hamas in the first place.
What if the bully went up to someone and said “I’m going to fucking kill you” and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area? Only Palestine and Hamas before now were the ones saying the Jews deserved death AND acted upon it multiple times. I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems. I’m sure those thai workers and rave tourists, massacred, raped, killed and kidnapped has a lot to do with the fucking situation between Israel and Hamas/Palestine. Israel isn’t clean, but in 1 day and 1 act became the cleaner of the 2 in non Arab public perception.
What if the bully went up to someone and said “I’m going to fucking kill you” and then tried to kill them using all means possible all because the bully and the other person exist in the same area?
This sentence alone shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the situation and the history that has led to it.
Jewish population in 1917 was 8%, but 1936 that was 28%. In 1948, during the Nakba, it jumped from 32% to 82%. Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine until the Zionist movement INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY took over, killed, burnt down, and destroyed not only men women and children, but every facet of Palestinian culture they could.
They shut Palestine out of negotiations and diplomatic channels, and ran straight-up propaganda campaigns in America to convince numbskulls like you who believe the slant they hear on Fox news about how Hamas are just terrorists.
Hamas actually attempted to be a legitimate government that played by the rules, as did the PLO. They were backstabbed, lied to, led on, and ignored by US, UN, Israel, Britain, etc.
I had sympathy for their plight until they indiscriminately killed people who had zero interaction with their problems
You can have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people while condemning actions taken by militants. Nuance is possible here.
And yet the Palestinian population grows each year.
Wow it’s almost as if Palestinians want to return to their fucking homes that they were forced out of, Jesus what a shocker, zomg
Nice “whatabout”, but the bully here is the party that engaged in an illegal occupation, the crime of apartheid, and extensive war crimes (annexation through settlement of occupied territory) in the first place. That you try to redefine away the fact that Israel created this situation in the first place borders on apartheid-apologism. It’s exactly the same tactic used by supporters of South African apartheid to dismiss the situation in South Africa whenever the ANC carried out a violent operation, and it was apologism for oppression then, and it is apologism for oppression now.
Nah fam, if you want to play that game Arabs invaded Jewish communities that had settled there during the muslim conquests, that’s over 2,000 years of illegal occupation. If you’re fine with that, you should be fine with Israel taking back their land at the “edge of a sword”.
Also it’s funny to hear you say killing innocent people not involved with the conflict is “apartheid apology”
That “game” of which you speak is an appeal to privilege in its most obscene form: claiming an ancestral myth that allows you to impact extreme violence against other humans whose only crime is being born into the wrong bloodline.
It’s 2023 CE out here but some cultures are pretending it’s 2023 BCE
Only one party is currently illegally occupying land they have legal claim to and engaging in the crime of apartheid. Only one party is engaged in fighting against an illegal occupier. That you choose to argue in favour of the apartheid regime engaged in an illegal occupation says enough.
When you say ‘destroying their neighbors culture’ - are you talking about Israel or Palestine?
Clearly Palestine. They’re the ones with a government they elected that literally put “destroy all Jews” in their founding charter.
Why leave out the fact that the Jews also have an equally legitimate claim on the land, in addition to having been taken close to the brink of total extermination by circumstances completely beyond their control? A normal, compassionate individual would welcome these people in, make room for them, and live at peace under a stable society, tolerant of different points of view. However, that is not what the Jews encountered upon the creation of Israel. It was just a continuation of the campaign to exterminate them, from a different group. Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Firstly, see “The law of belligerent occupation in the Supreme Court of Israel”, David Kretzmer, Professor Emeritus of International Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published in the International Review of the Red Cross, 2012:
Not even the Israeli government or the Israeli Supreme Court agree with you that Israel has a legitimate claim to the territories beyond their internationally recognised borders. Maybe somebody here is talking about the entirety of Israel, but I am not, nor have I ever. If Israel were to withdraw to their borders, and Palestinian attacks still continue, then there’d be at least room for discussion of blame.
Until then, as long as Israel itself legally recognizes that it is an occupying power, there is none.
Secondly, people’s experience of being oppressed does not recognize law. Irrespective of who has ownership of what, Israel is engaged in treating Gaza in particular as an Apartheid-style bantustan, and is committing crimes against humanity by doing so.
Whether or not you agree with the legal position on that, when someone places people in those conditions, then it is entirely on them when they hit back.
Blaming people for resisting gross abuse because you don’t like how they do it when you’ve put them in a situation where they have no realistic opportunity to fight clean is victim-blaming.
Are you going to argue that it’s bad for Germans to murder Jews, but it is okay for Muslims?
Nice try. I’ve not argued it is okay for anyone. I’ve argued in some threads that unless you’ve provided a better alternative (and not suggested it; actually tried to make it come to pass), then like the rest of us you’re not in a moral position to judge people for taking desperate steps to try to fight back.
That doesn’t mean not feeling for the victims, because they had no power to end this either. It doesn’t mean not thinking it’s a horrible situation. It doesn’t mean you can’t get angry. It means resisting the urge to assign the blame to a people the vast majority of whom have been born into effective bondage under an apartheid regime for taking desperate and irrational actions to try to end a gross abuse they have no realistic power to change.
They’re genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don’t care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they’ll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
They are targeting civilians not the military. They want to cause so much pain and suffering the Israeli people will push their govt to cede demands of Hamas to stop the fighting, or emmigrate somewhere else
They have been pushed into a corner and kept on getting squeezed, so probably feel they have no other options (and might very well be right in light of what has happenned in the last decade).
Had Israel stopped expanding “colonates” and taking palestinian land, I doubt the likes of Hamas would have the internal support and manpower to do what they just did, but over the last several decades Bibi and his predecessors have been just dubbling down and announcing ever more anexation of land.
The massive difference in military power is also probably the reason for the kidnappings: I suspect it’s a “strategy” to try and get the Israeli authorities to not just bomb the whole of Gaza.
Whilst I disagree with their methods I can see how over 70 years, given the trend in israeli politics and the lack of genuine and effective pushback from the international community against appartheid in Israel and the occupation, so many Palestineans have come to believe they have no other options than this kind of thing and personally I actually see no other option (even this they’re doing now is not really an option, more like a lashing out of the desperate).
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (to much hate by now, too many assholes on both side whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US’ and Europe’s treatement of Israel as if it’s a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it’s more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all, effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie and the Palace Du Eliseé.
It’s a shame because western countries were starting to recognize the apartheid situation in Israel and were starting to criticize it. I think had things gone a bit longer there would have been an intervention.
In any case, this whole thing is just sad. So many innocent lives are destroyed on both sides. And I sincerely think Israel, their government and the Jewish extremists are the root cause.
Well Hamas managed to kill hundreds of Jews in one sweep, for instance.
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Ukraine: Hey guys! What are we talking about?
Conflict between Israel and Palestine, color me shocked. Next you’ll tell me China and Taiwan aren’t the best of friends.
In other news . . . water is wet.
POTUS Biden already gave a response on supporting their military ally, Israel, and if I see one more braindead fucking comment like “sUrE BUt WhERe wAs HAwAiI’s FaST ReSPoNsE?” Within 4 hours he sent aid an national guard response, idk how right wingers keep using that stupid fucking talking point.
That said I really don’t appreciate the onesidedness of the USA response, I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future. I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn’t assassinated
I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future.
LOL! You really don’t understand anything about how the world works, do you?
I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn’t assassinated
Conveniently skipping over Ariel Sharon there aren’t you? You know that time when Israel removed all settlements and ended the occupation of part of Palestine as a goodwill gesture? What happened after that? Something for you to look into.
LOL! You really don’t understand anything about how the world works, do you?
UNSCO and UNDOF both have headquarters in Jerusalem and consistently have teams both in offices and on the ground upholding ceasefires and patrolling the borders. They’ve easily done more good with fewer resources than all singular nations combined on this topic.
Yes the UN can help in being observers after a ceasefire is agreed upon.
Does it look like there’s an imminent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas?
Do you think there’s are UN citizens that sign up for the UN military and go through training to serve on UN missions? Not how it is.
The way it really works is the UN asks actual countries to provide soldiers for these missions. So which countries do you think are going to send their soldiers to fucking Gaza based on a promise by Hamas not to attack them?
And UN observers don’t fight wars. They just report to both parties of the ceasefire the activities of the other. If either side takes military action the observers leave. Hamas fires rockets at Israel every week. Just that the Iron Dome takes them out and you don’t hear about it. But if you’re the leader of a country are you going to send your soldiers somewhere there will constantly be rockets flying over them with the potential that if the Iron Dome might clip on and divert it into your soldiers?
If my memory isn’t failing: then Israel will bomb some apartments, raid and beat some holy sites, eventually call a ceasefire before all the civilians die from lack of food, water, and power, then build more checkpoints and fenced off areas, and finally we’ll be right back here again in a few years until there are no more Palestinians.
So to answer your question, yes. If it weren’t for the UN I really truly believe Israel would just commit genocide.
You’ve obviously consumed a lot of internet propaganda originating from Iran.
Israel’s intent were actually genocide they could simply drop a nuke on Gaza and there would be nothing the UN could do to stop it. They don’t do that because their intent isn’t on genocide.
Also the UN cannot be in Israel without the consent of Israel. Nations have ultimate sovereignty over their territory there is nothing about the UN that supersedes national sovereignty. Seems you’ve also fallen prey to the “black helicopter” UN conspiracy theories, just you think UN black helicopters are a good thing. The reality is they don’t exist, UN peacekeepers are only where they are because nations have agreed to their presence to observe the other party of a treaty (and will allow themselves to be likewise observed) to ensure they are complying.
You should take some time to learn about how things work in the world instead of just believing everything you read on social media. The can provide tools that nations can use to facilitate peace, but the nations themselves decide whether to use those tools.
Israel
Literally sent
Netanyahu
To Court
Over This
What the hell kind of Iranian Propoganda originates in the courts of Israel?! He was literally removed from power because of the corruption trials.
Israel sends Netanyahu to court over many things. He’s a really crooked dude. So you’re gonna have to narrow down which specific case you’re going on about.
Israel has the iron dome to prevent something like this from happening, right? So why does the attack work this time?
It’s not perfect and especially a huge amount of rockets can overwhelm it. Also it’s much more effective on slower homemade rockets, not the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
… Well, this isn’t going to end well.
Keyword is “typically”. Iran has been sending rockets to Hamas for decades.
OP’s headline isn’t great, the rockets were only one part of todays events
At 6:29am, the Gaza Strip terrorist group launched an incursion into Israeli territory by land, sea and air as well as some 3,000 rockets within hours… …Armed Palestinians managed to overwhelm several Israeli communities and military bases along the border, which have stayed under their control for hours. Dozens of Israeli civilians were believed to be held captive in Kibbutz Be’eri. Israeli forces poured into the conflict zones and engaged the terrorists. Dozens of Israeli captives - including numerous women, children and elders - are believed to have been taken into the Gaza Strip.
ETA: there’s the added factor that it’s Saturday and a religious holiday so more people would have been asleep at home at that time, or on their way to pray/celebrate/party.
Saturation attacks are a common tactic to overwhelm air defense zones, but this isn’t just that. Hamas and IJ fighters have begun ethnically cleansing border towns, literally gunning down shelters full of civilians, as well as parading the naked bodies of women they’ve raped and murdered, through the streets.
This is only a fraction of the attacks, and all on video btw, but I don’t suggest watching them.
What are IJ fighters? Civilians from which side?
Islamic Jihad. It’s a relatively newer militant faction. All, or most, of the recent IDF military incursions into Gaza lately have been targeting their leadership and fighters.
Could you source that?
No, but only because I don’t want to have to look at them again. Go on Twitter, or any combat footage forum/sub, and they’ll be there.
There is no shortage of videos of both slain IDF (It’s war, so that legitimate), and terrorists attacks on civilians. I’m sure there are hundreds more clips uploaded since I stopped looking at the discussions.
Because the Iron Dome, like most other products of the US military industrial complex, is more of a profit seeking venture for PMCs than it is a solution to any actual combat problem
Still seems like the first time I’ve heard of this kind of attack causing double digit casualties isn’t it? I’m not super in the loop so I could be wrong.
not the sort of thing that’s good to wake up to. very sad
as usual, the Palestinian death toll is now at least 5 times higher than the Israeli death toll and Israel isn’t done yet
Don’t lose sight of who the aggressor is.
It’s a poorly equipped terrorist group fighting against a full fleged national military force. If the current death toll is only 5 times higher for Hamas, they really chaught Isreal off guard with that attack.
This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.
It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.
The chart shows military might. It doesn’t show intent. It doesn’t show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn’t show who ignited conflict after conflict.
A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?
This is only true because Israel is good at stopping attacks, not because Hamas isn’t trying.
Graph “intentional attacks” targeted at civilians and you’ll get a very different picture. Personally, if someone tried to murder my family but failed, I wouldn’t find them blameless just because they didn’t succeed.
Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.
Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it’s own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn’t be able to avoid civilian deaths.
And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.
Let’s see a chart of the number of attempted murders of civilians from each side. That’ll paint a pretty different picture.
Tell me, because we both know that the Israeli casualty number is only low because Israel is good at protecting its citizens and not because Hamas isn’t trying to kill as many Israelis as it can, do you really think the situation would be better if Hamas was more successful at killing Israelis?
And to the exact same point, one side being less successful at killing citizens doesn’t make them right either.
I mean, definitionally Hamas is the aggressor here. The force Israel has traditionally employed in response is nowhere near proportional or responsible, but they have rarely been the inciter in large-scale armed conflicts.
Bombast and hyperbole don’t win you arguments or minds on topics like this. Let the atrocities of Israel’s violent apartheid speak for themselves, free of embellishment.
Son what you’re saying is Israel has killed over 4000 Palestinians this decade, including 200 this year prior to this attack, and Palestine launches a counter-attack that leaves 40 dead, and because Palestine retaliated to initial attacks they are now the aggressor “definitionally”? Is the only way to not be labeled the aggressor to soak up every single death at the hands of apartheid in stride?
If you take 10 punches and then throw 1, you are not the aggressor and for anyone to suggest such is for them to side with the aggressor.
Not to mention, I’m having a hard time imagining someone saying “[Israel has] rarely been the inciter in large-scale armed conflicts” while simultaneously looking at the map of Israel carving up the Palestinian homeland to shreds.
When a fight stops and then you lob rockets at civilians years later, that’s a new conflict. This isn’t difficult to put together.
Ah yes, the famously stopped Israel/Palestine conflict. You’re right, I forgot that they had declared a ceasefire some time after the last Israeli raid on Palestine “years” ago, back in July 2023, where they sent thousands of troops, drones, and missiles into Jenin.
When the fight stops
Palestine has been occupied since how long? Israeli aggression never ended.
Did you know Israel is blockading Gaza?
I don’t really see how that’s relevant, here. It’s horrible; however, it’s also not relevant to whether or not Hamas started a new discrete conflict (they did).
Do you think there is an ongoing conflict if Israel is maintaining a blockade of Gaza?
Israel is an illegal occupying force. As such they are inherently always the aggressor.
This feels way too convenient for Netanyahu.
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