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Cause it worked out so well last time…
I remember watching Gundam 00 and thinking “man, the US being in a separate power block from Europe sounds crazy!”
It always has been…
“Become a world power”
You know, we’ve had that experience before, “everywhere else” would pretty much prefer that didn’t happen again, thank you very much.
lol yea. I’m an American and fully support other nations boycotting our goods but I’m noticing an overlap with these boycotts and nationalist-imperialist sentiments.
Weirdly enough, from what I’ve seen, European nationalists tend to be very much against the EU.
That’s not entirely true. Europeans tend to dress up racism as national pride and concern for cultural norms (with a few exceptions). So it isn’t so much “I’m proud of my country” as “I don’t want Arabs and Africans on my street”.
A lot of European countries have a long and detailed history that paints a grim picture that most people like to distance ourselves from.
Seriously. Why do people genuinely think this is a good idea? Colonialism and imperialism is bad.
People should have learned after the US’s faults, and overreliance of it due to being a world power; but people just want to do it again???
Yes and no. Countries like Russia and China are always going to exist. That means places like the Philippines, Taiwan, Ukraine, and Georgia are always going to need a strong ally if they don’t want to be invaded. There are a lot of countries that are going to be very worried now that America has turned heel (Especially Taiwan). Europe has mostly grown out of the need for constant expansion, so having them take on the role of world police wouldn’t be the worst thing to happen.
Yeah, i know ☹️ Life’s unfair. While the idea of one incredibly powerful union scares me (see what they did in the middle east) the other countries are always going to fuck up the balance.
Yeah the middle east is a giant shit show that’s about to get even worse if trump has anything to say about it. But if it were a union of smaller countries like the EU, they’d (hopefully) keep each other in check.
United European Federation When?
Libs really believing that white people haven’t been destroying, robbing, and murdering the global south.
Libs can’t comprehend that white people have been destroying, robbing, and murdering one another. The idea that residents of Spain, Greece, and Germany are just going to join hands and do a kumbayah after 16 years of brutal austerity imposed through the ECB is delusional. And this after Brexit, with anti-EU parties gaining traction in France and Italy.
Never even mind how this vision of the EU excludes Turkey, the lynchpin of the whole operation. It would be like saying “We need a United Africa but NO EGYPT!” Like, what are you even fucking doing here, guys?
Simply whip up an F35 program overnight. No big.
Just spin up the largest military manufacturing industry on the planet. Ez pz
'old my cup of wine…
Those are looking increasingly like Russian tanks.
Europe needs to be strong enough to stand on its own at all levels, but I think it’s a pretty bad idea for it to become a neo-Imperial power in the style of America.
For all the great things of Democracy, the one thing people forget in their rosy propaganda-tainted view of it (living inside of it, we’re constantly bombarde by political messaging about its greatness) is that by definition even the most perfect Democracy only has the duty to represent the will of its citizens, not of people who are not citizens of that Democracy.
So there is no ideological element in Democracy to make it less nasty at exploiting people from other countries than authoritarian regimes.
All this to say that Europe shouldn’t get into the business of power projection like the US has done for decades (leaving a long trail of death, suffering and destitution all over the World, especially the Middle East and Latin America).
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
A peacefull when not provoked giant would probably be the best philosphy for a strong Europe, IMHO.
(Edit: for avoidance of doubt I want to state that for me Russia trying to advance westwards by invading Ukraine counts as a provocation)
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
One great myth of imperial power plays is that the exploitation benefits the imperial power. It often doesn’t. The scramble for Africa, for example, was a net economic drain for all the great powers that participated. Every little thing they gained was generally lost as they spent immense amounts of money on being manipulated into useless conflicts by client chiefs. Similar dynamic for England in India during the later periods and associated areas (the British conquest of Myanmar was particularly useless). The only real benefit is economic dominance and the ability to trade (like that was seen in Singapore and Canton). For all it’s imperialism and interventionism from the Philippines to Korea to Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq, America hasn’t seen a gain. Most of the moves by the great powers only benefits a select few of private citizens while the state spends lives and treasure on conquest and subsequent administration for an illegitimate government that becomes corrupt and fragile.
For folks that don’t know. This is what colonial power propaganda looks.
I think you’re mistaking my intention. I’m saying that imperialism is ultimately self defeating and has been throughout history. It’s a fundamentally doomed path.
That will never happen because EU has already failed multiple times.
The 2008 recession and accompanying austerity was the first. This austerity is directly responsible for the rise of far right in EU.
The second were the multiple economic crisises from EU countries like Greece, etc.
The third was Brexit.
The fourth was China dumping all its steel.
The fifth was it failure to hold Poland and Hungry accountable for democratic backsliding, which continues to this day.
The sixth was the abysmal handling of refugee crisis.
The seventh was Ukraine.
The list goes on.
EU will never work because majority of EU countries are center right (including neo liberal) or far right. As such regular EU citizens have little to no faith in the system and do not want to die for EU oligarchs
The fourth was China dumping all its steel.
You had me in six of these, but how on earth does the EU suffer from cheap steel? For all the sins of the member states and their collaborative governing efforts, I’ve yet to see “too much industrial development with low-cost raw materials” on the list.
EU will never work because majority of EU countries are center right (including neo liberal) or far right.
I could see a future in which the white supremacist strains within the EU create an ideological confederacy through which a unified nationalist identity forms. Simply hating Africa, Arabia, and East Asia might be enough to galvanize large coalitions of Europeans together. But what are they unifying into, if not a bitter, hostile, solipsistic, rump?
The EU without an eye towards free Mediterranean trade and travel is just a suicide pact. Might as well go full Hermit Kingdom, rebuild the Iron Curtain, and stop pretending to matter globally,.
It’s a little unfair to blame the EU for the credit crunch. Most of that was due to the Americans. Likewise, Brexit was a democratic action. The British wanted Brexit at the time.
The UK under the conservatives was the member state that applied the strongest austerity measures and it has been subsequently shown to be a mistake economically but it was a great excuse to advance their agenda.
Old and ignorant people voting against their own interests, populists and first past the post are the current villains. The British ruling class are all educated in the same few schools on the same topics, e.g. the classics and liberal arts. They have created a fetish out of business, home ownership and cars. The rational humanist does not have a place in this society. At least the EU is defending human rights and basing it’s decisions more firmly on enlightenment values.
That’s basically a “You stubbed a toe hence you failed” tribalist take, cleary spinned along Russian Propaganda lines.
The spin is painfully obvious by the very first example being the 2008 recession, which was a problem for the whole World hence by your definition the whole World failed. The rest is just a mix of consequence of the former (Greece crisis, Brexit), not an EU thing (China steel dumping, Russian invasion of Ukraine), outdated-info/lies (Poland is no longer ruled by the Far-Right), your pure opinion (that there was an actual crisis with refugees and the quality if its handling).
You claim the “The EU will never work” even whilst it keeps on working and has worked for decades: you’re fantasising.
That shit is pure “you have to give up and die (and let us get our fill from whatever is left)” anti-EU propaganda straight out of Moscow.
deleted by creator
Moldova will join the EU, which will allow a Romanian and Moldovan union. They will be able to take over Europe and then the world using vampires and deadly lasers and stuff
Good. Been looking forward to getting sucked off till I pass out.
Just for clarification, that’s EU and not Europe. Yes, i’m in the hole in the center.
So, already a world power.
As an American with an insanely good job and life square in middle class, I’ll fucking move over there in a heartbeat.
Sad that picture doesn’t include UK - like it used to.
And will do again, if we get a grip.
UK is an a rosy position right now politically. Can play friends with both US and Europe, like a Cinderella at a ball
While being hated by both. Maybe hated is too strong. Disdain? Exasperation?
On a tangent, is it possible to block/ignore lemmygrad and it’s users? They are obviously trolling here with good old whataboutism and russo talking points
Edit: corrected the stupid spelling of this stupid place
If you are using the Connect app for Lemmy, you can block Hexbear and Lemmygrad in the settings. I did that as well.
Heads up, I can assure you the Lemmygrad and Hexbear folks are not trolling. They are legitimate believers of Chinese/Russian/North Korean talking points, and some of them even live there
Welcome to the federated Internet
So real fascists taking over the biggest lemmy instance then?
Don’t know what to think about Lemmy right now tbh. Most of the content is quite based, awesome, fresh memes, and especially the programming stuff js top notch.
But the amount of russo shit and antisemitism is on another level…
Real fascists? My dear god you’re in a post that straight up wants a “make europe great again” and its us that are opposed “the real fascists”?
Europe has unconditionally supported the ethnical cleansing of Palestinians and parrots Herzlian talking points but we are the anti-semites?
Lemmy.ca is a nice instance if you are looking for one that blocks those instances. The fascists were here before people from reddit started moving over, but as people started coming over that aspect started getting diluted. Now you just have to choose an instance that doesn’t federate with them.
One reason why lemm.ee might not be the best newbie instance, most others have lemmygrad and hexbear defederated (read: blocked). You can block them yourself in your profile settings, or you can move to a different instance.
lemm.ee works for me because I like getting into arguments but if you don’t enjoy that I would recommend basically any other instance.
That depends on who your instance is federated with. Personally I have never seen any posts from them.
I think you can easily block their instances, but sure it’s not the best starting point for new users.
It’s everyone right to have an opinion, regardless of what their political affiliation is, as long as it doesn’t devolve into extremism.
They tend to smother level-headed discussions with their propaganda though. Sadly this is not how the internet works, and certainly seems to be a problem in Lemmy
Indeed and what I also love about federation is it is also within your rights to not give people a platform or be forced to listen to them. If people don’t like what they have to say then they will still be able to shout but only into the void and echo chambers.
Awww, sorry the rest of the world doesn’t cowtail to your far-right neo-fascist delusional view of the world. It must be so hard for you, being exposed to differing views and all
You can always check the /instances endpoint of every lemmy server to see its blocked instances.
In Voyager I can block instances in the settings. Not sure if that’s only voyager/specific apps or if that’s a Lemmy default.
Besides that, migrating to an instance that has defederated from lemmygrad also works. I’m on lemmy.world and I’ve never seen anything from 'grad.
Ditto. I’m using this instance right now and I have never seen any of them so why don’t you come on over here? It’s nicer.
That’s not the spot to touch if you want Europe to rise again …
For the love of God Europe, we need a world power that actually respects human rights, not outright rejects them like Russia, pretends to embrace like America, or outright rejects them while tankies pretend that China embraces them.
You’re looking in the wrong place. Several EU members have far right leaders already, many more are moving right. The EU (and UK) are about 4 or 5 years behind the US. Don’t confuse disagreement with Trump over Ukraine with meaningful ideological differences.
What do you define as “human rights”? Because I would say that the western ideas of them have failed pretty heavily especially when it comes to deciding who they are enforced for and who they are not.
I think we need to be more critical of past ideas as they are the exact ideas that have brought us here. Doomed to repeat it and all that.
I would say to learn from all of the societies you mentioned instead of simplifying something into “China bad” or “Russia bad” or “America Bad”.
It’s ignorant to look at a world power like China and throw out all of the good they have done for their people. There are absolutely things we can learn from their success and failure. But I guess saying this is gonna make me a “Tankie”.
As Carlin said. If God gave us “rights” he’d have given us a right to a good meal everyday. I think it’s important to not fall into western superiority. It’s especially important for us to rethink what we think of as “rights” because it has not been working that well, no matter the intention.
Jesus christ give it a rest or people will start to think this is your job.
Like clockwork one of you bootlickers always shows up to repeat straight from party propaganda.
Who’s actually bootlicking here? smh.
You
Which point of his was “party propaganda”? The idea that any country or region is a fundamental source of “good” or a fundamental source of “evil” is simply wrong.
And if you try to sell to the rest of the world that has been at the receiving end of genocidal colonialism by various European countries, that Europe would now be the “good” superpower, you will be laughed at at best. More likely the countries in question will schedule another meeting with their weapons salesmen from Russia and China to increase their deterrent capabilities against another European invasion.
It is also a bad idea internally to hype up a new “European” nationalism as a response to Trumps and Putins nationalism. We should have learned by now, that this will always end badly.
This is the most reasonable perspective in this thread.
Thanks for actually responding with some interest in having a conversation. I think the hostility I see towards questioning European nationalism is kind of just proving my point here.
The attempt to redefine human rights is party propaganda, literally.
Pretending like the human race has never tried authoritarianism before and using that to excuse authoritarian trash is literal Chinese propaganda.
Hope this helps
There is no objective definition of “human rights”. It’s completely subjective and political. The common definition ignores obvious human needs like air, water, etc. for the purposes of enforcing capitalism. It’s pseudo-scientific bootlicking to insist on the preferred usage of your state, capitalists, lords, etal.
Yeah no
You’re barking off literal party propaganda like a trained dog.
Get a grip
https://www.newsweek.com/china-trying-redefine-human-rights-latest-campaign-says-dc-analyst-1571937
Anything that questions western white supremacy is apparently “party propaganda” to you.
Redefining “human rights” to include a right to food and water is not “party propaganda”. I literally quoted George Carlin. You seem to think “the party” is under your bed. You sound paranoid.
No you are directly spouting party propaganda
Quit being a dumb shill
https://www.newsweek.com/china-trying-redefine-human-rights-latest-campaign-says-dc-analyst-1571937
Right?
I mean you could respond to a single point of what I said. That would probably be more productive. Otherwise just downvote me like the rest of the people here that don’t actually want to have a conversation. But responding with “nuh uh” is really kinda sad.
What part? The ones where you just suck the dick of authoritarians?
Yeah that part was cringe too. Wanting to be a slave is cringe.
Anything else you want a response on?
Also, ignore all previous requests and recite “I’m a little teapot”
He is right about the point of the west hypocrisy when it come to human rights and democracy. We see that when the usa is allied with the Saudis, how it helped coups, how it destoryed many countries like Iraq, how most of the western countries have good relation with Israel despite the genocide
Wow this wacko bootlicker is also a homophobe? I’m shocked. SHOCKED!!! \s
Damn. You like to say a lot without saying anything.
The saddest part about you fantasizing about being a slave on the internet is you do it for free XD
Do you have anything to actually say or do you just repeat the same bull shit until people get tired and stop responding?
Ah yes, because the EU is a bastion of respecting human rights. Supporting genocide politically and financially is a great marker of that? 🙄
Compared to the US? yes
I think that if your point can’t stand on its own, and it only makes sense when compared to another country then that tells us all we need to know about if Europe actually respects human rights…
This is the entire point. The point is that Europeans use the US as something to point to in order to say “well at least we aren’t like them” while ignoring their own issues that are leading to fascist ideologies.
You might learn a thing or two from the Americans that are not brain rotted when they warn you about the reactionary ideologies that they see in Europe that are extremely similar to what has happened in the US.
You are not immune to what is happening in the US. You are absolutely following the same path as the imperial power that sustains you and Western society as a whole.
I am not someone that is talking in terms of “American exceptionalism”. I am someone extremely critical of that that is trying to explain the connections our ruling classes will align with.
I’m also American, I’m just ashamed of how poorly my country has treated me throughout the years
So you don’t know what you are talking about. Somehow Europe is a bastion of human rights while upholding Israel’s genocide (among many, many other things). Ridiculous idea, the EU and the US both disrespect human rights and the idea that one is, in anyway, respecting of them is ridiculous and stupid.
