U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres arrived at the BRICS summit in the Russian city of Kazan on Oct. 22, despite criticism from Ukraine, Voice of America reported.
The BRICS group, a bloc of countries that includes Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Iran, Egypt, Ethiopia, and the United Arab Emirates, is convening in Kazan for a three-day summit from Oct. 22-24. According to Moscow, 36 world leaders are participating in the conference.
Guterres is expected to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin on the sidelines of the event on Oct. 24, according to Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov.
Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry criticized the U.N. secretary general’s visit.
I mean, I get it, it’s shit. However, don’t forget Ukraine (Zelensky) is siding with Israel and find it (apparently) okay that they’re murdering thousands of innocent Palestinians. Genocide.
Both Russia and Israel are murdering innocent people.
Israel is kind of irrelevant to this topic.
Let’s not forget the current war in Israel started when Hamas terrorists (and Gazan civilians) actually murdered 1200 Israeli civilians. In the most barbaric way possible. And then took 250 more people hostage. Last time I checked, Ukrainian terrorists did not invade Russia and butcher civilians and take more prisoner. Israel and Russia are not analogous in the slightest.
The attack that Hamas did is horrifying and should not have happened. Indeed. However, it did NOT start on 7th of October. The entire situation was already incredibly horrifying, bad and seriously unhealthy for Palestinians within Israel and in Gaza.
Was it barbaric? Yes, certainly. But most barbaric, no. Considering what Israeli government has done to Palestinians from 1948 to 2024 (ongoing).
Here are some articles;
And two images of massacres Israel has done. Because you see, Israel has done so many horrifying and bad things, I’m unable to post it all here;
My whole point is; both are bad and shit. Both should be held accountable. Yet Zelensky praising Israel for so called ‘‘defending themselves’’ while, Israel is basically doing the same thing as Russia. Stealing land. He finds it entirely okay for Israel to murder thousands of Palestinian people but when it happens to his country, that’s not good all of a sudden.
EDIT 1:
Do you have an trustable source (EVIDENCE) that Gaza civillians were doing that? Because that’s a immensely high accusation to make without any evidence. Spreading that without evidence is dangerous and makes me wonder whether you have malicious intent or not.
EDIT 2: Checking your profile, you seem to be a Israel-supporter. The craziest comment I found was this one; you claiming Israel is not purposefully targetting civillians. This proves your bias. All evidence speaks against you.
LOL, wow. I don’t even know where to begin with this crap.
Yes, I am an Israel supporter. That makes me biased towards Israel. Just like your hatred for Israel makes you biased against Israel. See how that works?
And you’re right, it didn’t start on Oct 7, 2023. It didn’t even start in 1948. It started decades before that, when Arabs began violently resisting Jewish immigration spurred on by the violently antisemitic and Nazi-sympathizer Amin Al-Husseini. But I suspect that you actually know every little about the history, like most Israel haters.
What did you do to generate that ridiculous list of links, Google “Bad things Israel has done”?
I like your list of “massacres” too. Notice how the vast majority of them occurred in 1947 and 1948, during war started by the Arabs. Most of them are just battles in which civilians died, but the Palestinian propaganda machine attaches the word “massacre” to every single one for dramatic effect. I can play that game with actual massacres, going back centuries before your list.
Since you cannot stay polite, didn’t give the particular source about your claim of Gaza Civilians and do not give sources about your new claims. Our debate ends here. You can keep commenting but I refuse to after this one.
You can keep whatabouting your way back as far as is convenient. Like the other respondent also did.
It’s true that Israel and Russia are not analogous here, but they’re both breaking humanitarian laws pretty hard.
LOL, every time someone provides contrary evidence to your accusation it gets labeled “whataboutism.” I know all the anti-Zionist propaganda tricks.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation to take over their land. Israel is fighting back against a genocidal regime that has sponsored terrorist violence against it for decades, and has promised to destroy it. Big difference.
It’s because most Zionist arguments are whataboutisms. You want to make it about history, you want to make it about culture and religion, you want to make it about technicality. About anything except the hard numbers of what’s happening on the ground, because that’s devastating to your case.
How are the hard numbers devastating to our case?
Well, let’s see. 80% of commercial or public buildings in Gaza, and 60% of homes are rubble, and there’s ~50,000 dead Palestinians and twice that number injured. Meanwhile, Isreali deaths amount to ~2,000 (let’s say 4000 adjusting for the extra cruelty) and I can’t even find data on infrastructure damage because it probably amounts to a few buildings. In addition, something like three-quarters of the Gazan population have caught a contagious disease, such as cholera, do to the destroyed sanitation system, and >90% have had food insecurity, while Israel is unaffected by both.
That doesn’t really sound proportional, just or humane to me.
I checked the numbers with Al Jazeera for convenience, but everyone else watching gives similar values, including the UN, so it’s not just a Qatari opinion. War is starting up In Lebanon now, as well, and the West Bank is getting more and more lawless as a blind eye is turned to violence from settler groups. Gaza continues to be economically isolated and suffers all the various social ills caused by the resulting poverty, on top of the direct war damage.
That’s not what the principle of proportionality means. It has nothing to do with the death toll on each side. It’s a principle that’s applied to each individual strike and requires armed forces to ensure that any civilian deaths are proportional to the military objectives of the strike. Hamas and Hebollah are terrorist organizations that don’t respect the laws of war, so that’s a pretty big point in favor of Israel.
Second, many military experts have agreed that, given the conditions in which Israel is fighting this war, the civilian-to-combatant ratio in Gaza is among the lowest in the history of urban warfare. You’ve seen what Israel is capable of over the past year - it’s patently obvious that the death toll could have been much, much higher.
Third, the moral judgment of rightness or wrongness in a conflict isn’t determined by the death toll on each side. The winners of a war will typically suffer fewer casualties than the losers because that’s a big part of how winners in war are determined. The fact that very few US civilians died in WWII compared to German civilians doesn’t make the US the bad guys in that war.
There is one side in this conflict that is openly genocidal: the Iranian regime. They have literally admitted their goal is to destroy Israel. They have a doomsday clock in Tehran counting down to the death of Israel in the year 2040. And they are willing to sacrifice every single Palestinian life to make that happen.
Says who? The entire philosophy of a just war is about trolley problems - kill someone now, to protect someone later. Killing for anything else is just murder. Certainly, the UN doesn’t say what you’re suggesting, and Israel’s arguments under international law have focused more on all of Gaza being a military target somehow, as opposed to it being okay simply because of their goals, or because proportionality doesn’t apply outside of some very narrow situation.
Nothing is above human rights, and definitely not Bibi’s career, which is really what’s driving things here. Israelis themselves would rather make a deal. Everyone on the other side and Israel’s allies would definitely rather make a deal.
The conflicts are not even remotely the same, and you’re doing Putin’s work by spreading the nonsense trying to conflate the 2.
Edit: besides that, the UN secretary should be there. BRICS might turn into a major power block, it’s his job to stay informed.
Innocent people are being murdered. That’s what matters. So it is not nonsense but if that’s what you want to believe, that’s fine. Russia wanting to take over Ukraine land, Israel wanting to take over Palestinian land. The difference is that Israel is doing genocide with much more brutality.
Considering everything that’s happening and the UN can’t do much about it…?
Well innocents die in every war. In the Russia Ukraine war it is clear who is the bad guy. In the middle east it’s not as cut and dry unfortunately. What Israel is doing exceeds any proportionality, but it’s not as if there is no 2 warring sides of bad guys there that have civilians caught in the middle.
The UN is not a “do anything about it” it is a diplomatic forum.
Saying there is two warring sides and its not as clear cut is kind of ignoring the whole “illegal occupation, annexation and ethnic cleansing.”
Imagine Russia hadnt invaded again after annexing Crimea and in 2030 Ukraine started to fight to get it back. Would that make it “not cut and dry” because the rest of the world ignored and normalized around the annexation? Ukraine has a right to kick out Russian occupation from every last squaremeter of occupied territory… Palestinians have a right to kick out Israeli occupation from every last squaremeter of occupied territory.
Yeah, we disagree on the whole illegal occupation part when it comes to Israel proper. And this in turn leads to disagreement about a lot of the other aspects.
Everything in life has to do with priorities and where you put them and when it comes to the founding of Israel we disagree.
Gaza is illegaly occupied. The Westbank is illegally occupied and partly annexed. East Jerusalem is illegally occupied and partly annexed. This is not by my opinion, but by the ICJ
The people have a right to resist against that. And if the source of the occupation is in “Israel proper” (i presume 1967 borders) then it is legitimate to attack military targets there too. For instance it is impossible to remove the occupation of Gaza through the total border control on the side of Israel without attacking on soil of 1967 Israel.
Or would you say that Ukraine fighting in Kurst Oblast is to be condenmmed too?
There is many similarities between Ukraine and Palestine, except in the way Western leaders and Media talk about it and which side they support.
Hezbollah is in Lebanon. Why do they have the right to keep rocket shelling Israël?
Gaza occupation had ended, settlers where removed, Israel closed it off as gazans have no right to enter Israël, if Israël don’t want them too. Egypt had the border closed too, I guess the people in Gaza are not ones you let into your country.
West bank I have nothing to add, the whole settler stuff is criminal and Israel needs to do to the Jewish settlers there what they did with Gaza settlers, convoy them out back into Israël proper and wall of the border.
The issue is landlocked countries need to play nice with their neighbors and Palestinians have no friends on their borders. Neither Jordan not Syria want open borders with them, cause of the whole attempted coup by the PLO, sectarian “differences” and terrorism.
The fact that terrorist organisations like Hezbollah, Hamas and the PLO are so intertwined with civilian life in the Palestinian territory is an issue… for the Palestinians as it makes everyone in the organisation a valid target.
Edit: Jerusalem should be split off and given a status similar to the Vatican and governed by representatives from both sides imo.
The occupation never ended, it became more extreme with the blockade
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972.
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
On Hezbollah:
No it hasn’t
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf
Because Israel attacked them and has repeatedly escalated the conflict over the past 12 months.
Gaza was described as the largest open air prison by experts around the world.
That’s an incredibly disgusting generalization to say regarding an oppressed population. These people are being isolated and oppressedfrom the world due to their much more powerful and well-funded neighbors and you’re just sitting there saying “Yeah they’re not the kind of people I would want to let in”.
Hamas was funded and propped up thanks in large part to Israel.
Hezbollah started as a direct result of Israeli aggression in the 80s and 90s. Israel occupied the south of Lebanon throughout the 90s and Hezbollah harassed them so much they were forced to leave. This conflict is Israel’s second chance on this whole settlement project.
Does not take away that it is immensely horrifying for every innocent person. For all three (even four); All innocent Palestinians, Israeli’s, Ukrainians and Russians who do not want to go to war. Most just want to live their lives peacefully.
And so it is with the Israel-Palestine war. No offense but have you read the history? 1948-2024. Hamas only exists because of Israel’s action from 1948 to 1987. It is clear who started it and it is clear who are the bad guys. In this case, Israel started it, Israel are the main bad guys and then Hamas. There’s a whole argument regard Hamas being The Resistance but that’s for another time.
My point is, the UN is quite much a joke at this point. They cannot do anything while Israel has violated every international law. Diplomatic or not, they haven’t done much and I do not expect much from the UN anymore.
EDIT: Had to do some edits because formatting went bad.
The UN is not to do anything. The UN exists solely as a forum where countries always have a place for dialogue, no matter how high the temperature. It also gives a voice to all countries in conversations. It is an attempt to avoid nuclear war, not a world government. It has no power other than a voice through which countries can speak who agree with one another. If countries want to band together and do something they can, but the UN cannot. It can only give credence to actions taken by Member countries if enough other countries support it…
Not entirely true. The UN is here and can do;
I find it quite ironic that you only pin-point the comment about, the UN. But left out everything else about Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine.
To continue on your comment, on another Lemmy-user;
It has been said by the UN that it is indeed illegal occupation
Disagreement or not - UN has said it is an illegal occupation and that Israel should end it. Not only that, stealing land, murdering thousands of people, rape, illegal settlements and most of their political statements (such as; ‘‘nuke Gaza’’ and ‘‘Palestinians are animals’’). All indicate and prove this statement.
This just shows your bias regarding Israel as a whole.
Incredible that you mentioned the founding of Israel! Because;
David Ben Gurion, was a leader of the Jewish terrorist organization, Haganah. Sanctioned the bombing of SS Patria (French-built ocean liner) and murdered more than 270 people. Gurion become Israel’s first Prime Minster.
Yitzhak Shamir, was a leader of the Jewish terrorist organization, Stern Gang and sanctioned the assassination of a British official and a UN official. He became a Prime Minister of Israel too.
Manchem Begin, was a leader of the Jewish terrorist organization, Irgun and sanctioned the bombing of hotel King David Hotel and murdered 91 people. He too became a Prime Minister of Israel.
Wiki:
Do you actually know the history of Israel state?
EDIT: Another article - Creation of Israel, 1948
Yeah, this is not the gotcha you might hope it to be. The whole interbellum and post WW2 was a shit show.
And you are arguing Jewish terrorists are terrorists when they reclaimed their stake from the English but the Palestinians are resistance? Jews where ousted from the region too, but if it’s long enough, then tough shit? What do we then think of all the Jews ousted from Arabic countries to Israel who where absorbed into the country? If the same had happened to the Palestinians the issue would have been mute, but the Arab friends of the Palestinians decided to keep the Palestinians locked into their predicament as this would help them most… Or something.
And the occupied territories and colonial settler programs are criminal and should stop. Gaza settlers where removed, Westbank settlers should be done the same.
I don’t care about “gotcha”, I care about respectful debates. However, I have lost interest with debating you already (due to that particular statement).
If it means doing what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for the past 70+ years, then yes. Why on earth are the Palestinians of today repaying for something that happened centuries ago?