This also works for Magic The Gathering.
Yeah. I’ll just go ahead and leave this here:
A classic.
For the uninitiated, the likelihood of being able to pull off a 4-card combo on turn 1 is very small, even in unrestricted formats. Decks that rely on this interaction either include ways to win on later turns or are unreliable.
The typical variant I’ve seen is using a bunch more Moxes and Lotuses and so forth to play Ancestral Recalls/Timetwisters or Timewalks or similar to either pull the right cards from your deck or skip your opponent’s turn until you draw them naturally. And doing such a thing nowadays is… expensive.
Also, if you shoot your load and your opponent has a way to counter your fireball, now you’re standing there with your pants down around your ankles and 1 health. Ready to be done in by a single goblin, or possibly a stiff breeze.
Even so, in modern formats where Black Lotus, Moxes, and Channel are not outright banned you can only have one of each per deck anyhow. So the notion of having 4 of each to pad your deck out to the minimum 60 cards likewise goes out the window. Still, having this spread available is sort of like having a nuke in your suitcase. You’re never actually going to set it off, but it’s nice sometimes to let everyone around you know that you could if you really felt like it.
I also have an Enduring Renewal based infinite mana deck that is similarly impractical, but no less spectacular when you actually manage to pull off its core combo. Your ability to put your opponent into the negatives – or yourself into an insurmountably gargantuan health pool via Alabaster Potions – is limited only by your opponent’s patience and lack of conceding on the spot in disgust as you shuffle your Ornithopter back and forth and back and forth…
I have a more straighforward lightning bolt/shock/goblin grenade deck that is less exotic, but considerably more reliable. The explosions it makes are smaller, but everyone explodes sooner or later.
Back in the day decks had a 40 card minimum and no max copies of cards. There were decks that were just mountains and lightning bolts. So getting a combo like this out wasn’t completely unheard of.
Nowadays, combos need lots of drawing and fishing to hit in the first couple turns.
Confirm, and I am guilty of having owned, and currently owning, functional decks that basically just boil down to mountains and lightning bolts. The “new” (decades old) rules forced me to diversify a bit, but Fallen Empires brought us the gift of the Goblin Grenade, so it’s all gravy for me. Four goblins and four Goblin Grenades is a win, even if you don’t attack with any of the goblins. You can spice things up in the interim with Lightning Bolts if you like.
Also, isn’t a black lotus worth tens of thousands of dollars?
A mint Alpha Black Lotus would be in the hundreds of thousands.
A moderately played Unlimited Black Lotus would be in the thousands.
Not if you have a printer
I’d disagree. I keep up with both MtG and YGO (MtG as a game I like and YGO as a horrified observer), and the two games are not even close to equivalent here.
In YGO’s one official format, the oft-quoted statistic is that games don’t usually last more than 3 turns - those 3 turns being half the length of how MtG usually measures turns - Starting Player, Non-Starting Player, Starting Player, game. The interaction relies on your opponent having the right disruptive tool to slow down your combo.
For MtG, the only formats that are really like that are Legacy and Vintage, formats that are generally incredibly expensive to play in paper and definitely not where new players are gonna start. Even Modern, the next oldest and thus powerful format, has games that typically last at absolute least 3 turns for each player (twice the YGO standard) and most of the time last much longer. Then Standard, where new players are expected to start, has so much less combo “I win the game now” potential specifically because it’s a bad feeling for new players and the creators don’t want the format to be that fast. I can’t find a great source on it, but winning a Standard game anytime before turn 5 is notable, and usually means your opponent didn’t do anything.
Sure, it’s 3 turns, but each turn lasts 10x as long as in Magic, so it evens out. Also, it’s a pretty big exaggeration - the meme is “turn 3 dead”, but you can usually last a couple more and hope to get some kind of out.
3 turns that are only so long because you’re playing spider solitaire with yourself.
And with hand traps those turn become “our turn” anyway, making a still super interactive game equivalent to 15 turns. At least, theoretically.
Try a non-eternal format. I like modern; turn 1 wins are super unreliable.
I love drafting MtG. But I hate playing with the resulting deck.
Removed by mod
Try a non-eternal format. I like modern; turn 1 wins are super unreliable.
If they are possible at all there’s a problem.
If a deck lets you win on turn 1 6.25% of the time, and completely flop over 50% of the time, you’ll lose often enough that your deck isn’t going to win any tournaments. That’s not an oppressive force in a metagame.
But if even that is too much for certain players, they can just avoid Vintage. There are non-eternal formats with no t1 wins. Pioneer, Standard etc have no such t1 wins.
Generally for certain decks that have the value of a car and only in certain formats.
Yeah, there are turn one kill decks, but they generally don’t exist in the formats most players play and WotC will ban cards if they do show up.
The first time I played MtG, my friend who was teaching me let me go off with the token deck he lent to me. I ended up making so many creature tokens I was just writing them down on a piece of paper. It was in the hundreds. And then when I swung my massive army at him, he Uno-Reverso-d me and basically killed me with my own creatures. I think it’s still the most brutal way I’ve lost a game of Magic and I absolutely loved it XD
IIRC there are infinite token combos and if you are using one, you can just establish the loop and then claim the amount you want, so you don’t have to go through the process a billion times.
Reminds me of this skit! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXTt8MBTX2o
Genuinely thought “That’s gonna the proZD sketch, isn’t it?” It’s a good one!
This is the one I was thinking of
Ooh, it’s Ratatoskr!
I always think of https://youtu.be/cp4fxe75810
I despise Yugioh for this reason alone.it’s absolutely -boring- because it is just a coin toss. Whoever is first wins.
As someone who is actually GOOD at Yu-Gi-Oh… It feels like unnecessarily many steps to either accomplish nothing or to basically instawin.
“Spider solitaire” is what I dubbed it
Matches with classic decks were great, though.
Exactly! It’s an 8 minute turn of watching an opponent set up their entire board to instantly win, or pass the turn and counter all your chains with traps, then win the next turn xD. Mostly the first, though traptrix was more of a 2 turn win. Overall, it was absolutely silly. The spider assessment is 100% accurate here. Hoop jumping with cards to just say “I win” without even playing. Keeping a person captive for 8 minutes because you won rock paper scissors to show off your pretty cardboard collection is just dumb xD.
I played master duel for awhile and played Eldlich with skill drain to try and prevent “cut scenes”.
But, can’t do anything if I don’t have hand traps and they go first.
I had this happen to me a few years ago. My friend was dating this older woman who had a teenage son. We went to her place one night to play games. We all played Yu-Gi-Oh when we were younger and brought our old decks/cards.
Turns out the teenager played also but collected more recent cards, think it was XYZ at the time. We decided to play against him and he destroyed us in two turns, we had no chance. My Mirror Force, Magic Cylinder and Harpies Feather Duster were no use 😭😭
You forgot to teach the newbie the part where if they do interact with your turn 0 win, you rage quit because “wow dude your threat assessment skills need some work.”
Honesty I find it so dumb when someone is teaching someone a new card game, and they use a super powerful deck and absolutely wreck them.
Like what are you trying to prove.
There was one time I did that in Pokémon, but only because my friend had never played and was convinced in a joking way he could beat me if I played with my good deck, so to go with his joke I thrashed him with my good deck and then we laughed about it.
It’s like these people can’t stand to lose to the point they have to protect their fragile egos from a newbie.
If you play with a new player use balanced beginner friendly decks like the Pokémon battle academy decks or the MTG starter decks.
When i used to teach magic to others, id always give them my RB vampire deck which was a beast. Id then either use my UG trample which stood a chance, or if i knew theyd be a good sport id use my red win and keep board wiping till i was board then deal like 90 direct damage ending their hopes.
But i was always sure to give them a great deck to play thats easy and fun. It was my deck though and i knew every play they could make and how to destroy it.
I always just assumed they were making shit up as they went along on yugioh
They were. The game came later.
You’ve activated my trap card! Also, my unbreakable board full of effect monsters that negate literally everything you could possibly try to do while I pop all of your cards with my spell counters and discard your whole hand.
I always feel bad for TCG because the more you learn about them the less fun they are. I should be enjoying a variety of cards but instead I’m reducing the amount of luck and bad draws by just putting duplicates of every useful card to the max value I can
I used to play magic with my friends when I was in school and we made the mistake of actually going to the game shop and trying to play with people there. We all got demolished by the tryhard dudes there because we just made decks with cards we thought were cool and they all knew the meta gaming stuff. On top of that they were assholes about it. We never tried that again.
I did manage to win one game with a combo I had that allowed me to generate an infinite number of 1/1 tokens but that was sheer luck.
That’s pretty much all competitive games unfortunately.
“Join League of Legends and try its 165 Champions
of which only 40 max are worth playing at any given time!”I mean CS isn’t
I’ll admit I never played that one, but it really doesn’t have “that handful of weapons/loadouts/whatever that are competitively viable and overshadow all the rest”?
It’s different to competetive games mentioned here because a) at least like 70% of guns are competetively viable b) they are all meaningfully different and c) they allow for a wide array of different tactis that makes the game really fun to watch and play. Obviously there is a meta, but that meta changes and encompasses a lot of things.
You just have to memorize all of the maps, and the recoil patterns of each gun
Does the Negev see comparative use?
Well not because its not competitively viable. It’s just not meta right now, and it probably won’t be for a while because there’s a gentleman’s agreement in pro play not to use it, similar to the autosniper, although the autosniper is also partially because it can be a really bad time to drop it into your opponents hands.
In regular matchmaking it’s not too uncommon to see.
Of course, the meta is aks, m4s and deagles, but really, most weapons are compeititively viable, depending on the situation. The mp5 is criminally underrated. I wrote a reddit post during the Astralis era about how good dualies were on pistol rounds, and they’ve only just gone meta despite not having had any change to price or functionality. Same with the scoped rifles.
There’s one weapon in CS that’s not viable, and it’s the m249. All the other ones can be used competitively.
Yeah I know, I was being a bit obtuse on propose. CS is pretty much gold standard of a value generating non-p2w successful competitive game.
However it does have some weapons that are considered non viable in comparative unless the balance changes or the meta does (krieg Fi).
It’s just impossible to make a game that has a choice of strategies, in which every choice is as competitive as the other.
Those weapons are in the minority though. The real problems only ever happen when valve tries to rebalance shit and accidentally make the game almost unplayable for several months.
That’s where casual commander and limited in MtG shine. In commander, no duplicates, and playing casual with known playgroups can let you just have fun with weird combinations of cards. And in limited you just have to play with what you open or draft, and try to make it work, which is a fun challenge.
Both great options I used to recommend. I’m sure you can try hard 100 card decks but I think at that point people are more willing to be annoyed at you for not having fun in such a format
I’m sure you can try hard 100 card decks
That’s called CEDH, and it is very competitive and toxic. That’s why I specifically mentioned casual commander.
That’s the good thing about MTG. A first round kill is theoretical possible, but buying the cards costs you several k. Also the card needed for this is banned in almost every playmode.
Are you arguing a high price point for MTG is good? That’s laughable. A game should be balanced by play skill. I play cEDH which has turn 1 wins but they’re infrequent and I never expect my opponent to actually own the cards. I want to play opponents, not their wallet. Some formats are financially restrictive and that just plain stupid.
That’s why I also mentioned that those cards are banned in almost every format. Of course, skill is better than money, but because of the complexity of mtg having a good deck makes a huge difference. Also just so that you know. For a round 1 kill in mtg you need to draw the black lotus(which you are only allowed to have once in your deck), the card channel fireball, one red mana and a shock. You need to draw all this cards in order to insta kill your opponent. It’s very powerful, but also very rare.
At least you’re onboard with skill>money. Your example is referring only to Vintage though. There are plenty of turn 1 wins in any of the Eternal formats, there have also been turn 0 wins (win in your opponents first turn upkeep). Even in Vintage, there are many more ways to turn 1 win, without Black Lotus. In cEDH turn 1 wins are uncommon but there are plenty of decks where they can occur but to your point, it is very rare. cEDH has the added benefit of 3 opponents trying to stop you but even then early wins happen. The banlist being built around casual Commander but used for cEDH doesn’t help.
Yeah, though round 2 kills are still somewhat common in certain formats. But yeah round 5+ is much more common.
I have a MTG deck that’s pretty much like that, but if you don’t get lucky with the cards, you’re going to lose pretty quickly. It’s all based around an artifact that reduces cycling costs.
I remember a deck like that with onithopter. It was scary fast. I had to build a deck specifically around it lol.
Wishing Well was a classic of the genre.
That one was part of the strategy, but the main card was the Fluctuator, and another one I can’t remember that let you search your deck and draw a swamp for each creature in your graveyard. Then a spell to do X damage per swamp tapped.
I truly want to love the game.
But Konami not only power crept the game out of control, but they also make their own dumb decisions on top of that.
This also goes for OCG and TCG. Master Duel is even worse because it’s actually losing players too.
Man I hate what Yugioh has devolved into in the past 5/6 years. At least before that the duel wasn’t decided in the second player’s draw.
“Where are you going, this isn’t even my good deck!”
![Yugioh Master Duel [MrLovenstein]](https://startrek.website/pictrs/image/b204ae3d-0d20-44fc-abe0-f16b6d81364a.png){kind=link}