- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
Yes I know China is also technically capitalist but you understand the idea
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right right… which part of China is communist again? is it the permanent oligarchy? the reeducation camps? the low-paying factory jobs that make the owner class rich?
China is about a fascist as they come. One virtue doesn’t eliminate 100 vices.
Say what you want about the PRC, they make the trains run on time.
(the secret ingredient is slave labor!)
Source: it came to me in a USA government funded dream
Sure, if you’re one of those people who just uses fascism to mean “the bad guy in my hero vs villain worldview”
China’s nationwide passenger rail network doesn’t really care if you have a valid point or not.
Yes, comrade, we have the best trains. They are most efficient for getting workers to the labor camps. We must work hard to build the glorious future for
dear leaderour people!
Spain is better at building high speed rail infrastructure than China is. The problem is not the economic system, it’s what lobby groups are in charge.
Source?
Now do Vietnam vs Japan or Switzerland
For some reason, people still act like capitalism and socialism (or communism) are mutually exclusive, that an economy must be one or the other. But if you look at essentially every national economy on the planet today, they are all some mix of the socialist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by the government, or a group of workers, or a community) and the capitalist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by a private individual or group of investors, operating for a profit). Almost no economy is exclusively one or the other.
It is true that in most countries with robust high speed rail, there is significant government involvement, like planning and building infrastructure, subsidies, or just providing rail travel as a public service. I definitely think that for a national rail service network to work, you need to do some planning. Here in the US, government and planning are bad words, but clearly they needn’t be.
Social programs are not Socialism. The government doing stuff is not Socialism. You cannot take aspects of a society out of their context and analyze them discretely. The United States does not have a “Socialist” millitary. Socialism is a mode of production determined by public ownership being the principle aspect of the economy, ie large firms and key industries being firmly public, as opposed to Capitalism where private ownership is the principle aspect.
Socialism is a mode of production determined by public ownership
That’s what I’m talking about. Essentially every national economy on the planet includes at least some socialist production. I can’t think of a single national economy on the Earth where the production of all goods and services is carried out exclusively by privately owned, for-profit firms. Can you?
Public Ownership is not Socialism itself, but a component of a Socialist economy. An economy where public ownership controls the large firms and key industries, ie has genuine political control, is Socialist.
No system is purely public or private, hence the line of demarcation between Socialist countries and Capitalist countries is where political power is vested.
No system is purely public or private
I know, that’s what I’ve been saying. That’s my whole point.
You’re conflating public ownership in general with Socialism, though, which is wrong, and leads to wrong conclusions like thinking the US Postal Service is a “socialist part of a Capitalist economy.” All systems are mixed, what determines if a system is Capitalist or Socialist is which aspect is primary in the economy.
Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative, or employee.
Go back to my original comment where I described the socialist mode of production:
the socialist mode of production (when the means of production are owned by the government, or a group of workers, or a community)
I understand the Wikipedia entry, I read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and countless other Marxists. I even read anarchists like Kropotkin and so forth. You are confusing public ownership in general with Socialism as a Mode of Production, which the Wikipedia entry hints at, but you lack the context to understand that, which is why I am telling you.
We should also put “communism” in quotations too.
China is as communist as the vatican is good for kids
But sure let us be blinded by propaganda and ignore that the trains in china are held together by ducktape, rails are unsafe and got build with slave labor :)
trains in china are held together by ducktape, rails are unsafe and got build with slave labor :)
Speaking of being blinded by propaganda…
Would be Propaganda if it wasnt send videos posted chinese citicens on chinese platforms
What?
China is a Socialist country run by a Communist party, which is why the overwhelming majority of major Communist orgs recognize it as such. The economy is dominated by the public sector, which controls the large majority of key industries and large firms. They aren’t fully developed post-scarcity Communist yet, but they are developing through Socialism.
Further, Chinese infrastructure is good. The rails are safe and the trains aren’t held together with duct tape, and they aren’t made with slave labor. This is just chauvanism.
They are not socialist in the slightest. That requires the workers to own the means of production, which they do not.
Edit: To expand on this companies are organized the same way as in capitalism because they are capitalist. Workers at the bottom, management in the middle, and rich capitalists at the top.
The overwhelming majority of the large firms and key industries are publicly owned and planned, so yes, the workers do own the means of production for the majority of the economy. Further, managers are workers too, not owners. I think you have a very specific view of Socialism that’s exclusionary towards Marxism, for Marxists cooperatives aren’t truly “Socialist” as they are petite bourgeois cells that retain private property and exclusive ownership within, when the goal of Marxist Communisn is the eventual abolition of Private Property, which can only be accomplished by folding all property into the hands of all, through public ownership.
The workers have no meaningful power or ownership over their workplaces, so it doesn’t matter how much is publicly owned. I personally will never accept the marxist redefinition of socialism, nor will I ever accept an authoritarian vanguard state.
I do not want to continue this debate, tankie. It’s never productive for anyone.
You don’t have to respond, but if you’re going to disengage after making a bunch of claims and insulting me, I think it’s only fair that I respond for others that read this thread.
Workers in China do have meaningful power over their workplaces, and the majority of the economy is publicly owned. There are worker councils in workplaces, the agricultural sector is largely cooperative based, and even many firms like Huawei are cooperatives.
Secondly, Marxists did not “redefine Socialism.” Marxism is a part of the broader Socialist tradition, trying to redefine Socialism so as to exclude Marxism is odd, considering it has had by far the largest impact on Socialism historically and in modern times.
Finally, all states are authoritarian, in that all are used by one class to oppress others. It is best that the class in power is the Proletariat and it uses that state power to oppress the bourgeoisie, as is happening in China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.
Again, you don’t have to respond, but if you’re going to disengage after insulting me and making a number of claims, I’m allowed to address them as well. Have a good one.
It’s more like American car centric culture vs rest of the world.
well not the entire rest of the world… source: living in Brazil
I see Brazil the same way as an artist going on world tour
Really, your example for the “free market” transportation in the US is Amtrack? … in a car community?
This is just a tanky shitpost.
In an anti car community. Considering the US proudly proclaims itself the champion of the free market, yeah, it’s only fitting to use Amtrak as the example.
yeah, it’s only fitting to use Amtrak as the example.
Or you know … a car? Because then it would at least be relevant to this community.
…the post is intended to portray the difference in trains – the logical, excellent, and much preferable alternative to cars. They’re excellent everywhere else but absolute shite in the supposed pinnacle of the free market.
I guess the rest of Asia and Europe don’t count?
China does have a superb high-speed rail network, you gotta give them that
I guess Japan and (good) Korea must be communists then with their extensive and reliable train networks.
I guess Japan and
(good)(colonized) Koreawew that colonizer morality…
Ahhh yes, recognising the state that doesn’t shoot ‘defectors’ and run concentration camps is better is ‘coloniser morality’.
Also how exactly was South Korea colonised? Other than by Imperial Japan of course.
A democratically elected government was assisted in repelling invasion from an authoritarian regime.
Sounds familiar to some current events really.
They were bombed to shit by the US whose military is still occupying them to this day…
of course the state that did that and wants to maintain any veneer of democracy would twist itself in knots to convince you that it was the right thing to do.
The North is an authoritarian dictatorship that sends defectors families to labor camps.
If you think that’s better than the South then you have problems.
South Korea is an American vassal state. South Korea’s military is fully under the control of the US military. I know of no other purportedly sovereign country with such a setup.
South Korea is a democracy and North Korea is an authoritarian dictatorship.
You’re tankie scum if you think the North is better.
