Too narrow, hidden, minimal feedback…
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Lots of people who are designing websites and webapps are just out for the design. Usability went in the background for whatever reason.
But more and more people are getting more aware of user friendly UI and functions for people with disabilities. But yet it’s not the highest priority sadly.
for whatever reason
Flashy sleek shit gets invested in.
Outside of business specifically oriented towards people with accessibility issues, the energy just doesn’t translate into VC.
Companies who do try to shoehorn it in when products are more mature usually have:
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A codebase with a frustrating amount of refactoring in order to retroactively get things in line.
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Development inertia where it’s seen as a low value activity among developers and product owners
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Lack of clear guidance/tools/processes to QA new work
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Lack of will to retroactively identify the breadth and scope of changes you even want to make
There is no mystery. It’s not going to get you sexy VC money at the beginning, and then it’s bizarrely more work than you’d think once your project is sufficiently large.
That doesn’t explain why already established products are ditching things like plainly visible scroll bars in products like Microsoft word and other content viewers.
That’s true. I can speak from experience how I’ve seen it go down in many products, but no idea what apple and Microsoft are thinking.
It’s bizarre, because usually at some point in size, companies will start to explicitly have accessibility UAT processes. Even directorship roles specifically with that responsibility
It’s bizarre, because usually at some point in size, companies will start to explicitly have accessibility UAT processes. Even directorship roles specifically with that responsibility
I used to be a programmer for a large cable company (rhymes with “bombast”) and at one point I was the only programmer there working on accessibility in all their mobile products. The executives there at all levels had a shocking contempt for accessibility as something to even be concerned about at all and it showed in the disastrous state of all their apps. The only reason they even began to address the problem was the threat of million-dollars-per-month fines from the FCC for all the accessibility audit failures. They even hired a blind guy as accessibility VP but he quit in despair over the corporate lack of concern after just a few months.
This. And it doesn’t only apply to companies. I have a personal blog with a couple accessibility issues that I haven’t bothered to fix because I’ve built a lot of my CSS around my bad HTML. Part of the issue is that I built my site as a school project for a web design class I was taking, so code quality wasn’t great. One day I might redesign it better, but I don’t have the energy for now.
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But if we show a full-sized scrollbar all the time, we lose all that space that we could have left completely empty otherwise!
Yeah, losing function over form is annoying.
They need that extra space to cram in more ads!
People with dexterity and hand control challenges have a difficult time with these skinny scroll bars.
I have neither dexterity nor hand control challenges and I still find it incredibly hard to grab those skinny scroll bars.
One additional design “feature” I really despise is auto hiding scroll bars. So then to visually see when I am I have to scroll up and down to bring it back.
And web designers that do that stupid scroll hijacking where scrolling “stops” and then things move around for a bit should be launched into the sun. It’s the most anti-UX design I’ve ever seen. It’s literally the same as temporarily causing your mouse cursor to move in the opposite direction of input and then calling it a “design feature”.
Imagine if each application on your computer arbitrarily changed up the direction your mouse cursor moves. It’s literally the same thing. Computer input should be 100% predictable and reliable. The instant you do that it makes the computer/program/website feel sluggish and inoperative.
Just more examples of modern designers creating shit to stay relevant.
I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-2000s, then it all started going to shit.
Back in the day, the guideline was to put useful information and links at the top of the page when it loads, so that people could read the important bits and follow the links they needed without having to scroll down. Then everyone started using the entire space on load for a stock marketing photo or video so you would always need to scroll to see anything useful. Then they added whitespace everywhere so you’d need to scroll more. Then they removed the scrollbars. And sometimes they make scrolling do unpredictable animations instead of scrolling. It has become self-indulgent design instead of functional.
Make America-Online Great Again!
We had good design up until the mid-2000s,
…when people were saying “I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-1980s…”
…when people were saying “I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-1960s…”
…when people were saying “I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-1940s…”
…when people were saying “I hate modern design. We had good design up until the mid-1920s…”
Rinse, repeat. The past wasn’t always better, you were just younger. We just had different design problems in 2005.
Computer UI design is what is being discussed; not really pre-internet media.
What happened is that pro tools became available to unskilled, untalented, and unseasoned amateurs around 2000. I think what’s being criticized is the “web 2.0” trend that arose when every nincompoop with cracked copies of Adobe/Macromedia Suite(s) could produce and publish trash, as became sooooo easy and cheap. Whereas prior to this shift in technology, design had to be well-conceived and intentional because proofing and publishing was an expensive barrier to tom-fuckery by hobbyists.
e: spel
Wrong, but okay.
There is a trend of users lowering their standards so developers’ jobs are easier. It’s why we don’t get settings as often as we used to.
No, we don’t get settings because companies skimp out on engineers to actually build the backend, and Apple normalized not being able to customize your workflow so people accept it. It has very little to do with design trends.
You just described design trends then said they have very little to do with design trends.
If you can’t tell the difference between design trends and management trends, I don’t think you know as much as you think you do.
Scroll bar hiding/skinny scroll bars are for people who don’t use them.
Apple hides them by default because they expect you to use the trackpad/scroll pad(?) on the magic mouse.
And just straight up broken by idiocy like infinite scroll.
Most fun are the infinite scroll pages with a footer.
Hey, it’s difficult to figure out how to present large amounts of information in a usable fashion. So let’s just NOT EVEN FUCKING BOTHER and just put everything into a gigantically long list instead.
It’s not that it’s difficult, this method encourages “doomscrolling” because the user doesn’t actively decide to go to the next page.
The Nielsen Norman Group observes that “infinite scrolling minimizes interaction costs and increases user engagement.” Infinite scroll keeps users engaged and on the page because the page never ends: there is always something more to see, no wait to see it, and very few interactions.
I feel you, so I have researched this:
For Firefox you can change the width /style of the scrollbar:
(A) In a new tab, type or paste
about:config
in the address bar and press Enter/Return. Click the button accepting the risk.
(B) In the search box in the page, type or paste
widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style
© Press the Return or Enter key to find the setting. Click the Edit (pencil) button on the right side of the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style setting.
(D) Delete the current 0 value for the default OS style scrollbar. Then input the value 1 (Mac OS X), 2 (GTX), 3 (Android), 4 (Windows 10), or 5 (Windows 11) in the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style box for the scrollbar style you want to change to. For example, enter 4 to change the scrollbar to the default Windows 10 design.
(E) Click the Save button on the right side of the widget.non-native-theme.scrollbar.style setting to apply.
Also for the hiding:
Windows: Settings > Ease of Access > Display > Automatically hide scroll bars in Windows
Mac: System Preferences > General > Show scroll bars
I call it the “War on Scrollbars” and I think it started when some meme about watching a teacher use a computer got popular. https://old.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/df8cd/watching_someone_use_a_computer/
I absolutely hate how tiny scrollbars have gotten. I hate how clicking in a certain spot cause the scrollbar to move slightly instead of jumping directly to where I click.
These are modern design decisions that I think shitty designers implemented because they need to feel useful. Then, autistic users who want nothing on their screen praise them for it.
It’s disgusting and I hope, one day, we can look back on how the 2010s were the worst decade for software design so far.
Then, autistic users who want nothing on their screen praise them for it
What does autism have to do with scrollbars?
Actually dragging the scroll position indicator as in the comic is still cringe though. I fully agree with the usage of clicking to go quickly to where I want to go, but the most useful thing about a scrollbar to me is that I can look at it to know where I am in the page.
Why would you want to make it jump directly? You can just hold until it gets there. If the content is excesively long, then the problem would be the designer
Lol.
Rather than argue with people like you (which is a waste of time), I’d settle for a setting.
Gonna block you now.
Nah it’s fine I think I mandela’d or gaslighted myself. I’m also gonna downvote my failure
That meme has nothing to do with scroll bars though…
Ironic that you didn’t scroll far enough to see the bit about the scroll bar 🧐
Also, linking to a shitty reddit post that forces me to open an imgur link that then again forces me to click the damn picture to be able to see it well enough to read is just stupid as well.
You mean… the source? Lol.
Anyways, gonna block ya now.
Have a good day.
Fuck you bitch ass.
Lol… The scroll wheel is vastly superior to the scroll bar so that part is just stupid.
Christ on a bike mate, that’s the point of the comic. You need to stop skimming things and actually start reading and understanding
Umm… what?
At the very bottom, in big bold letters, it says “NOT USING SCROLL WHEEL” when someone using the scrollbar.
Lol. It feels like ya’ll just say dumb shit to get a reply.
I have a broken scroll wheel (which happens every 5-10 years, whenever the lifecycle of my mouse reaches its end), and I feel the pain every freakin time I wanna scroll.
Nowadays with such high-resolution screens I just can’t understand why it’s needed to make those scrollbars so narrow.
Because the high res screens of the target audience are just 6.5" big.
It could be that websites are being made unbearable, to pressure users into switching to the site’s mobile apps, which are generally spyware. I can’t stand looking at homedepot.com on a phone, for example. Even if I don’t look at the screen, I can feel the phone warming up in my hand as the crapware javascript on the site drains the phone battery.
I just generally don’t browse the web on mobile unless I’m away from home and don’t have a computer nearby. Phones are inferior computers.
For a while I was playing video games with a mouse that had a broken scroll wheel. Some games just don’t even implement a scroll bar at all… So you have to hold down the arrow keys to go through each item. So infuriating.
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Well, I won’t agree, because I haven’t met with this problem yet. I’m just here to somewhat disagree with the upvote part: in my book, upvote means agreement. I find it totally unnecessary to repeat the same thing, when you can just upvote. That’s what upvote is for.
(But as I said, I didn’t agree, so it wasn’t me, I didn’t upvote.)
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My favorite text-related thing in websites is the layouts with enormous amounts of screen real estate that still put important information (like song or film titles) in a single line that ends up truncated with ellipses (with bonus points when they don’t even implement a tooltip that would show you the whole thing). Like, wrapping text and having the rest of the UI flow beneath it has been easy to do in any language for literally decades, but somehow programmers don’t know how to do it and designers get pissed if you make them even think about that.
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I like the way GTK is doing it. You have a thin scrollbar that is overlayed over the content and has no background (so just the knob) but when you get near it with the mouse, the background appears and it becomes double as thick. That way you’re not wasting any space but you don’t have this issue of it being hard to use either.
Am I the only one who never considered normal scrollbars to be a ‘waste of space’?
It’s surprising to me how modern designers seem to care about scrollbars, but not all the white space we see on everything else.
Minimalist design really went from “maybe 38 different clickable links isn’t the most optimal way to get around this site, we should probably optimize how we use screen space” to “WE MUST GET RID OF USEFUL FEATURES SO WE CAN DISPLAY 5-8 MORE PIXELS OF WHITESPACE” in the span of a decade lol
What I also like about GTK’s scrollbars is that the scrollbar only auto hides when the scroll area completely looses focus. As long as the mouse cursor is hovering anywhere in the scrolling region the scrollbar is visible, so you don’t have to scroll first to see where the scroll position is.
X buttons are another problem, light grey and fucken 10% opacity on a white background and the target is right in the middle of the intersect.
I can’t stand tiny buttons whose clickable area is limited to the graphic itself, just virtually unusable. I’m a mobile app programmer (or used to be, anyway) and whenever I got handed a design like this to implement I would always make the tappable area larger than the graphic itself - and then have to deal with angry designers who insisted that was a violation of their design principles. On more than one occasion, I was ordered by managers to undo the already-implemented larger tappable regions, on the hilarious grounds that implementing them would take too long.
You made them lose money my friend.
They want you to click by mistake to show “engagement”.
Even using pc all day I can’t click a scroll bar on the first time!
Customizing the scrollbar on Firefox using CSS is different so many sites don’t even bother and keep the default one
Overlay scrollbars. Luckily in gnome and kde plasma you can disable them and get real always visible scrollbars
According to the article they took away the override setting in GTK4 and they aren’t bringing it back
Sounds pretty on brand for gnome ngl
