Hello World,
Today, after careful consideration and evaluation of recent events, we have decided to defederate from Lemmygrad.
Regrettably, we have observed a significant increase in hate speech and calls to violence originating from the Lemmygrad instance. Due to the severity of the posts and comments, we are not waiting for the next Lemmy update that will allow users to block instances.
At Lemmy.world, we have always strived to foster an inclusive and welcoming user environment. However, recent posts and comments from Lemmygrad have clearly violated our server rules and, more importantly, our core values. We firmly believe that hate speech and incitement of violence have no place in our community, regardless of personal beliefs or affiliations.
As always, we encourage all users to report any content they deem inappropriate or harmful. No matter one’s stance in any conflict, Lemmy.world will always take immediate action to remove and ban any posts or comments that incite violence or propagate hatred.
We encourage everyone to continue engaging in discussions within the boundaries of respect and understanding. As we move forward with this decision, we remain committed to providing all community members with a safe and welcoming space. We appreciate your continued support and cooperation in upholding our shared principles.
Thank you,
The Lemmy.World Team
Lemmmygrad supposedly is for people who support communism, but when talking to them, they really are supporting totalitarian countries which have nothing to do with communism.
It’s amazing what some state-sponsored troll farms can convince people of. Some people can’t evaluate content they see online critically and gobble up the propaganda
The tactics and attitudes definitely make me think of that. It seems like the same people who showed up and fucked up a bunch of subs on reddit 6-7 years ago, like how conspiracy went from discussing things like UFOs and MK ULTRA to conservative political conspiracy theories and opposing the Democratic Party and politicians.
Are you saying MK ULTRA is just a conspiracy theory and never happened? I’ve watched documentaries on PBS, BBC and the History Channel. Clearly the program existed, as for what clandestine operations it ran, that’s certainly loaded with conspiracy theories.
If everything is a conspiracy theory, nothing is a conspiracy theory.
https://www.history.com/topics/us-government-and-politics/history-of-mk-ultra
No, I didn’t intend any meaning like that. I just said it was the sort of thing discussed on the sub prior to a bunch of bullshit.
The bit that really irked me was that it was purely performative. It seemed like literally the exact same community that populated the_donald with memes and Trump train bots and the photoshopping of Trump’s pic onto Rambo. Their posts have fuck all to do with communism just like the trump posts had nothing to do with conservative politics. It was just edge faux-outrage and basically taking an opposite position for its own sake. They could simultaneously criticize Gov Newsom for not signing a trans rights bill while praising Putin who is doing his level best to make being gay illegal. It’s a mistake to see it as political discourse when it’s really just trolling. Like on the_donald, they egg each other on and have their in jokes and memes (in both the picture sense and in the actual meme sense) about walls the same way the trumpers did with helicopters.
Defederation is the best response imo.
It is funny to mention Trump around tankies and watch their heads explode. They can’t pretend Trump is a communist, but their propaganda masters don’t want them to turn against the Republicans, so they’re just in this weird space where the only thing they can do is aggressively avoid the topic at all.
I’ve seen them actively celebrate that they don’t suffer from “Trump derangement syndrome” like liberals (supposedly) do. The longer you watch them, the more pro-fascism you see slip through
Don’t forget the classical “liberals are the real fascist allies”
Just be aware that “liberal” has a complete different meaning in the political discourse compared to what it means in the current (low quality) american political discourse. Historically liberals have been allies of fascism, indeed.
Liberalism birthed capitalism, the greatest hierarchical economic system this world has ever seen. It supports and feeds capitalism with its cult of individuality, a reverence of wealth and power, and its almost dogmatic need for competition in order to sort the best from the worst.
Fascism is a logical extension of this. All it does is shrink the in-group and expand the out-group.
Nazism was basically just liberalism taken to its conclusion. Rich people get to live in comfort as poor people die in a mass genocide.
Uhhhh. No. That’s not how it went at all. Rich Jews did not get to live in comfort, they had their wealth stolen and were killed all the same. Nazism was ethnic cleansing, antisemitism, and purging society of the “unideal”, rich or poor. The only German Jews who I think could get amnesty were those who fought for Germany in WW1 – soldiers do not tend to be rich, and their families were not extended the same amnesty, from what I recall. Otto Frank had military service but it did not save his family.
It’s rather disgusting to ignore the antisemitism and homophobia that led to genocides and reduce it to only economics.
I don’t think you’re really considering that liberalism does a lot of the same shit, only their targets are different groups which you don’t consider because it makes you feel uncomfortable.
I’ll clear that one up since everyone here seems to be boldly making inaccurate claims. They say that because media outlets and people will spend more time analyzing and critiquing Trump eating McDonalds or typing covfefe than the US, say, drone striking innocent Afghani people or the utter shit show that Libya has become due partially to the efforts of Clinton and Obama.
You could have just sait it’s whataboutism.
hexbear had an entire thread with hundreds of comments where they all agreed they hated trump and viewed him as an odious fascist
https://lemmy.ml/post/4040923?scrollToComments=true
The closest thing you find to support for trump in there is some of them thinking he is a less effective imperialist.
I’ve actually once seen a tankie scream something about how the “imperial coreTM” (America) allows gay marriage, codifying Obergefell into law last year just in case SCOTUS and some red-state AG decide it needs to go and make a serious attempt at it. Some of them actually do think it’s “capitalistic degeneracy”
That’s my problem with it. For some reason they support countries which have nothing to do with being socialist or communist. It makes their philosophies and claims seem really inconsistent and not based on any real ideology. It seems like at most an anti-US, anti-EU ideology, and for some reason they scorn the same US politicians that conservatives here do, while never mentioning any problems with the people in the US who are even more against workers rights and in favor of unbridled capitalism. Also, the tactics of groups of people mocking people and comments reminds me of the shilled-out shit that showed up on reddit several years ago.
You can’t understand why or how communists and socialists would be anti-US and anti-EU? Really? Seems fairly self evident to me that that’d be the case. Why would you expect anything but hostility towards the ultra capitalist systems in the US or EU from communists and socialists? Seems like an odd complaint, anti-capitalist sentiment is part of the core of the ideology as I see it.
My question is why they’d support Russia and China instead, which are as currently as capitalist as the US and EU. And also, as noted, have scorn for the more socialist politicians in the US while not criticizing the ones that support the even more abusive capitalist policies.
Buddy, if you really believe there are active socialist politicians within the US system, I don’t know what to tell you.
Also, it’s kind of wild to call China “as capitalist as the US and EU”. Russia sure, its current system is very predatory capitalist in its makeup, even if they have particularly Russian characteristics to it. I mean, it’s hard to imagine Biden have Musk or Bezos dressed down on live television while stripping them of their assets, the way Putin did with a number of oligarchs early in his rule. But it’s very capitalist all the same. But China as capitalist as the US? That’s just nonsense. State capitalist I could understand, but capitalist like the US is just plain nonsense.
There are politicians who support more socialist policies than others, and the so-called leftists in question reserve their mockery and scorn for them, vs. ones who are openly pro-billionaire, anti-government and anti-union. Perhaps you can explain why.
“State capitalist” is a competent of fascism, if you’re not aware. And yes, Putin abused various political opponents in the past. Nothing about current Russia or China has much to do with communism.
You’re avoiding the point though. Why would supposed socialists and communists support Russia and China?
ultra capitalist systems in the US or EU
Given the number of social programs in the EU, bunching it with the US just denotes ignorance.
For some reason they support countries which have nothing to do with being socialist or communist.
It’s all they’ve got. There are no real Socialist or Communist nations as those ideologies are fundamentally incompatible with groups of people larger than about 150, at least in a world that isn’t truly post scarcity.
It’s a shame really but that’s just how people are.
As tankies often do. They are just a different colors of fascist, but damage the reputation of all lefties
Oh you guys do plenty of that on your own don’t kid yourself.
Whenever communists or socialists gather, the tankies take over.
It’s been like that since the past 100 years.
I’m not even sure they’re really tankies anymore (or the meaning of the word is changing). Actual tankies still ostensibly support communism, but all too often, it’s blatantly apparent that they’re actually right-wing totalitarians cosplaying.
They’re tankies in the original sense. The word came from an incident where there was an actual honest to god socialist movement when workers were seizing the means of production, and “communist” Russia sent literal tanks to shut it down. A reporter happened to observe the whole thing in person and tried to write up the story, but his editors would only print the official U.N. statement that the tanks were stopping a fascist movement.
Thanks I’ve been wondering where the term originated
Yep, it’s easy to bait them too. You make a post or comment calling out tankies for supporting authoritarianism, and out of the woodwork scurry all the “socialists and communists” to downvote you.
Thing is, a real socialist or communist hates authoritarianism too.
[Looks around nervously]
Aren’t we gathering here too? This defederation seems like tankies not taking over.
Anecdotally I was in a bunch of actual leftist subreddits; I only departed because capitalists enshittified the whole website.
Maybe you just didn’t recognize it. Reddit leftist spaces were famously led by tankie mods.
Yup, you would call out their BS and you get banned. The system was perfect and no one is allowed to fully criticize it.
Aww, they’re just not doing “the right kind” of communism I guess?
Show me communism that doesn’t end in genocide and totalitarian state leadership, I’ll wait.
The biggest problem with communism is not the socialism, it is the totalitarism that is required for it to function. And that’s the part that kills people.
Now that Russia and China aren’t even communist, it clearly shows what they are truly after.
I think that’s the point: communism had good intentions but always ended up in totalitarianism.
Good riddance
Agree
I honestly don’t get the big deal about defederation.
Free speech doesn’t really seem achievable on social media because bad actors will always manipulate votes to ensure that some opinions are promoted more than others.
For example, the opinions of lemmygrad should probably consume ~1% of the total informed opinion “pie chart” if you will. They can be adequately represented by some idiot posting their opinion in a thread once in a while - yet here we are. Their bizarre takes are sucking all the oxygen out of the room.
Surely there’s a better way to ensure that all opinions on a given matter can be considered rather than just saying we must allow our streets to be overrun with zombies lest we forget they exist.
Thank fucking god. It’s exhausting being around people for whom any meme, any post, any comment, has to spin into how good communism is, how bad the libs are, how good China is, and how bad The West TM is. It is exhausting.
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All you need to know is where the word “totalitarian” comes from without looking it up and you’re set
Oh no! How will I stay
informedmisinformed about the great utopias of places like China and North Korea???Ftfy.
/s is required for all sarcasm on the internet, mate
I think this is for the best, there are some seriously disturbed people posting on Lemmygrad. I saw comments cheering on and celebrating the Hamas attack and talking about how they hoped the people who were kidnapped get tortured. Whatever your politics, that is super fucked up and not “legitimate discourse”.
“People always say this exists but it’s just a smear on the left wing, I’ve never seen it!”
I really wish the first instinct wasn’t for people to play defense, but to instead call it fucked up that people would possibly say that
The reason many haven’t seen it is because it doesn’t happen often. Next time it happens, grab the link or take a screenshot.
Edit:
I really wish the first instinct wasn’t for people to play defense
This is not playing defense, it’s being skeptical.
Those people exists, sure, but if someone has gone that far left there’s really no practical differences between them and the far right anymore.
Assholes will be assholes - left or right hardly even factors into it at that point. They’re all just spiteful haters playing tough on the internet either way.
I wish I could say this is just crap happening on the internet. But the truth is that if affects us directly.
if someone has gone that far left there’s really no practical differences between them and the far right anymore.
You don’t know what left or right mean, do you?
Leftism is against hierarchy, capitalism and the state. A far-left society would have no government, an economy where all participate voluntarily to the level they desire, no money system, no hierarchy or class system, and a generally tolerant attitude toward beliefs and attitudes.
The right wing, however, values hierarchy, tradition and rejects progress and change. A far right society would be… Well, Nazi Germany. A strong state controlling all aspects of life, prescribing specific roles for people and rejecting, exiling or just killing those that don’t fit in.
There is no similarity whatsoever. Horseshoe theory is bunk invented by centrists who know nothing about politics.
My arguments were not about the politics per se, but rather the behaviour of human beings following said politics. If there were any chance for a leftish utopia as you describe it I’d be all for that. In my youth that was something I even dared to hope for.
Alas, we haven’t seen anything but people taking the worst aspects of either side and using demagoguery and violence to prop themselves up so far, have we? It’s not a horseshoe, it’s a full circle, and in any case I’ve personally never heard anyone critique Faye’s writings. In fact, they seem to enjoy a pretty good reputation amongst the left in general.
The problem is the same as it has always been; some people just want more, and they’re willing to walk over their fellow man to get it. Until that changes, nothing else will, either.
You seem eager to lecture others, but let me ask you this: do you really think politics matter in a trench when you’re getting shot at, or when your children are starving to death? When there’s no clean water or electricity? Seems somewhat naive to me, those ideals of yours. The world isn’t that black or white.
Learn the difference between left and right before trying to patronise me. That block of waffle was pure drivel. You didn’t even go to google before that display, did you? Try it now. Try googling what the far left, then what the far right is. Then be embarrassed.
Also - the sheer absurdity of talking about political theories and “ignoring the politics”. You wouldn’t ignore the maths when discussing mathematical theories, would you?
the worst aspects of either side
What are “the worst aspects” of the left wing and the right, and how do they even remotely resemble each other? Try your best to explain that.
It’s not a horseshoe, it’s a full circle
You’re just proving that you understand so little, you don’t even get the bullshit that is horseshoe theory.
some people just want more
Okay, and that wouldn’t be possible in a leftist society. You act like these possibilities haven’t been thought of. You act as if you’re the first person to apply any sort of thought to this subject. You’re not. You’re just an arrogant dickhead.
Have fun with all that anger, it’ll really serve you to get absolutely nowhere when you’re older. See how long you can keep it up.
Try reading some of the other stuff Faye wrote, you two would probably even agree on some things. Try that Google thing you seem to like so much.
As for the rest, if you haven’t figured out you’re spouting basics but nobody is listening anymore I can’t really help you. You’re 30 years too late in my case, anyway. Now please stop.
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Wonder how they feel about Hamas preventing the evacuation of civilians from Gaza… but I bet that question would be banned as soon as it was posted.
I hadn’t heard that Hamas was blocking civilians from leaving Gaza, but they do like using their people as meat shields. Though it wouldn’t make any difference if they allowed such an exodus, because both Egypt and Israel aren’t letting anyone out.
They said it earlier on the news.
First there were requests for Egypt to open their borders in order to let humanitarian aid into Gaza… to which Egypt said “the fuck no, we don’t want Palestinians coming into Egypt”.
So next was a request for Egypt to open just a humanitarian corridor into Gaza… to which Hamas said “the fuck no, we don’t want Palestinians leaving Gaza”. 🤦
Last news I’ve heard, is that some planes are getting packed with humanitarian aid at an Egyptian airfield, to fly into Gaza and only deliver the aid… because neither Egypt nor Hamas want any of the people in there to leave (hopefully some might jump onto the planes anyway).
Hamas is supposedly also stopping anyone from heeding Israel’s 24h ultimatum to leave northern Gaza, however laughable that is to evacuate over a million people on such a short notice.
Israel would likely let everyone out… as long as they went “out out”, as in to some other country, not to Israel.
Nothing of value has been lost
Addition by subtraction
Tankies mad
“Cowards” lol
They literally just ban you if you start to pick apart their bullshit opinions.
Proudly banned from !GenZedong@lemmygrad.ml
Oh hey me too! High five!
we should make t-shirts
“You chose to not have to listen to our bullshit? Cowards!”
Lmao posted to the Communism community. How is this about communism? It isn’t. It’s just that to them, everything is about communism.
When you’re called a coward you know it’s a W because it just means you don’t want to be dragged down to their level
beautiful
🍿
tankies gonna tank
Lost all respect for lemmygrad when they deleted a comment i made about voting for the lesser of 2 evils being the correct course of action to advance the interests of the Prolitariat in the United States. They care more about larping as revolutionaries than enacting change that actually helps the Working Class.
I understand that they are staunchly pro-communist and also take a pro-Palestine, including some of them (many of them?) a more clearly pro-Hamas stance. And that all of this could annoy many of the centrist liberals that seem to dominate here. But from perusing the lemmygrad link I do not see clear signs of hate speech, certainly not a clear hate speech agenda as you would see with some hate groups. And judging by the comments on here many seem to be happy to be “rid of them” because they are “annoying”, or “immature”, or “tankies”, or whatever. It really reads largely like “their opinions annoy me” so I’m glad they’re gone.
There may be more to it, I don’t know, but personally I wouldn’t like lemmy.world, an otherwise fine instance by all means, to become a centrist liberal silo where no other opinion outside (mostly US-centric) liberal orthodoxy is heard. So yeah, not convinced that this was the right decision, basically because of a lack of evidence.
Lemmygrad is a cesspool of pseudo intellectual unemployed neckbeards complaining about how oppressed they are under the yoke of capitalism, from their mother’s basement in Wisconsin.
Good riddance to it.
About time.
Tolerating intolerance will only lead to intolerance.
Free speech is important. Every opinion should be heard and considered. However, your freedom ends when it crosses over someone else’s. Good riddance, i had blocked most of lemmygrad’s communities anyways, since all they did was spread propaganda and hate.
Love the mod team (being ex-reddit, never thought I’d say that), the transparency and clarity of their communication with the community is great!
Before I saw lemmygrad: wtf are we doing?
After I saw lemmygrad: glad we defederate…
You guys were still federated with Lemmygrad this long?
Most of their communities were blocked since months, that’s why you didn’t see much of them.
The phrasing of “an increase in hate speech and calls to violence” suggests that there is a tolerable level of those.
I’m pro voilence against people who block grocery store entrances because they figured that was the best place to chat with someone they ran into… so yes.
People going slow in the fast lane on the freeway
Escalefters 🤬
Yeah, there is: using your critical thinking skills, what number comes before 1?
long pause
That’s right! Zero! Good job! And what do we call it when 0 becomes 1?
long pause
And increase, yes! applause
Tune in next week with Dora the Internet Explorer! Bye for now!
This would be a lot more of a stinging response if they could read.
I took it to mean “it has increased to the point we can’t deal with it all”
I’m wondering if you’re trolling or just ignorant. I’ll do you the respect of assuming ignorance.
There will always be hate speech in any forum. Period. This cannot be stopped short of closing the forum down entirely. If, however, the hate speech is low volume, it can be dealt with individually with post deletion, user bans, community deletions, etc. Standard “tactical” moderation techniques.
But…
Shitholes like lemmygrad.ml release a veritable flood of hate speech, as do their right-wing “Freeze Peach!” equivalents. Individual, tactical moderation does not scale to that level without a whole lot more money than a hobbyist-run instance can bring to bear. Thus if hate speech and calls for violence reach the point where tactical moderation can no longer keep up, you start with the strategic moderation. In older-style forums that might be an IP ban. In the Fediverse it’s defederation.
See how that works?
Now please, prove to me you’re not trolling and simply didn’t understand how things work.
Yes, there is.
Example:
“I hate fascists and they deserve to get punched in the face.”
FINALLY, thanks a lot! 👏
