Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It’s not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it’s also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That’s one of the realities of life you mentioned.
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
See? Dismissive, refusal to acknowledge systemic issues, rugged individualism. That’s holdovers from patriarchy and feminists should reject that thought process.
When women have a problem, it is society’s fault and we should fix it. When men have a problem, it’s their own fault and they individually should fix it. That’s not fair, and the fact that no one in the feminist sphere seems to give a shit leaves young men deciding to turn to misogynists for moral support.
Red pill types will say, “we see you. This is a problem. You’re not crazy.” That’s very powerful when there’s no alternative.
We’ve talked about your singular love for genocide multiple times in the past. In the context of your hatred for feminism and your sympathy for incels, you truly are the voice of centrism.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you even when you follow me to another sub just to pile on me with unrelated…things to say.
HIGHLY UNSPECIFIED THINGS WHICH I AM NOT COMMENTING ON, MODS.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you
Your defense includes mocking genocide victims and screaming “russian shill” at anyone who doesn’t agree with your total and unwavering support for genocide for the sheer love of it.
Your ideas regarding support for genocide are right-wing. Just like your sympathy for incels and your rejection of feminism. Your support for right wing ideology and policy is consistent.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
I explained how the two are related. If you don’t want to interact with me, don’t.
Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It’s not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it’s also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That’s one of the realities of life you mentioned.
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
Bro, you’re almost there…
Get me over the finish line then.
He/she already tried.
All I see is “everything bad is patriarchy, everything good is feminism” and a steadfast avoidance of the specific issue I brought up.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
Personally, I find my experience to be much the opposite. But, I’m also in my late thirties so, experiences may differ.
You need to hang out with better women, my man.
See? Dismissive, refusal to acknowledge systemic issues, rugged individualism. That’s holdovers from patriarchy and feminists should reject that thought process.
When women have a problem, it is society’s fault and we should fix it. When men have a problem, it’s their own fault and they individually should fix it. That’s not fair, and the fact that no one in the feminist sphere seems to give a shit leaves young men deciding to turn to misogynists for moral support.
Red pill types will say, “we see you. This is a problem. You’re not crazy.” That’s very powerful when there’s no alternative.
You have a lot more sympathy for right-wing incels than you do for people who don’t support genocide.
Removed by mod
We’ve talked about your singular love for genocide multiple times in the past. In the context of your hatred for feminism and your sympathy for incels, you truly are the voice of centrism.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you even when you follow me to another sub just to pile on me with unrelated…things to say.
HIGHLY UNSPECIFIED THINGS WHICH I AM NOT COMMENTING ON, MODS.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
Your defense includes mocking genocide victims and screaming “russian shill” at anyone who doesn’t agree with your total and unwavering support for genocide for the sheer love of it.
Your ideas regarding support for genocide are right-wing. Just like your sympathy for incels and your rejection of feminism. Your support for right wing ideology and policy is consistent.
I explained how the two are related. If you don’t want to interact with me, don’t.
Dude, you jumped into this conversation. I don’t have much choice but to interact with you.
Also, for the record, I disagree with your characterization of me.
Every single woman I know wants a guy in touch with their emotions. And those who found them, married them.
Tell your friends to stop trying to date under 25 year olds. We get over that shit at about this age.
Cool, good for you. That’s not the norm. At any age.