• maol@awful.systems
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 year ago

    The description of how utopians see critics (“profoundly immoral people who block the path to utopia, threatening to impede the march toward paradise, arguably the greatest moral crime one could commit”) is extremely similar to the way scientologists see their critics and ex-members. I suppose at least TESCREALists have a slightly higher measure of independence than scientologists and are thus less likely to be convinced to poison a critic’s dog or send them threatening letters.

    • saucerwizard@awful.systemsOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Not just Scientology; Peoples Temple, Aum, or Shining Path all apply too.

      Edit: they also have more money and political influence at this point then the above. this isn’t good imo.

        • maol@awful.systems
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          …no?!? ETA: you could get the “learning small skills” benefit this LessWrongie claims to have gotten by, I dunno, learning how to play chess. Without having to enter a Scientology org. And they wanted to do more courses with the Scientology public speaking course???

          It’s not a cult folks, it’s definitely not a cult…

          • saucerwizard@awful.systemsOP
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            I know journos are looking again, finally, but like Peoples Temple was taken down that way.

            (also I really recommend reading Raven or the PBS documentary on Jonestown).

            • maol@awful.systems
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              In secondary school we were doing a unit on religion and one day when the teacher was out we watched a documentary about Jonestown, pretty horrible. Ended with the Jonestown tapes. It became clear at the end that most of the other girls in my class had never heard of Jonestown and were really shocked by how it all ended. I don’t know if I can go back and look at it all again. Interesting though if only for their relationship to SF politics.

          • Soy@masto.ai
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            @dgerard I have no idea how to post in awful.systems from my mastodon account, even replying can be a bit weird, as I can reply, but only if I find a link to a post here first (on masto.ai).

            • David Gerard@awful.systemsM
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              @self perhaps we need a “how to post from mastodon” guide

              it’s possible but you have to do particular things I think?

              • self@awful.systemsM
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                that’s a great idea! in the meantime before we write that post, this archived reddit thread has some details on how to do things here from mastodon. in brief, I think starting a new toot, tagging @SneerClub@awful.systems, following that with the post title, inserting two newlines (aka start a new paragraph), then writing the post body and posting that should work. keep in mind that markdown probably won’t make the trip over!

              • Soy@masto.ai
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                @dgerard Don’t put too much effort in for me. I already am a bit weary of SC now being boosted to people who follow me on mastodon. Risk of people either getting into LW or thinking sneerclub wants you to go ‘talk to’ the Rationalists is a bit high.

                That I have also seen people use the word TESCREAL (urgh, not a fan of the term) against leftwingers who are just into nuclear power, or who fear degrowth will only affect the poor is worrying.

      • maol@awful.systems
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yeah it is the classic cult characteristic. Synanon members putting a snake in someone’s letterbox is another example. Also Hare Krishnas, MOVE, etc etc.

    • BrickedKeyboard@awful.systems
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      The one issue I have is that “what if some are their beliefs turn out to be real”. How would it change things if Scientologists get a 2 way communication device, say they found it buried in Hubbard’s backyard or whatever and it appears to be non human technology - and are able to talk to an entity who claims it is Xenu. Doesn’t mean their cult religion is right but say the entity is obviously nonhuman, it rattles off the method to build devices current science knows no method to build and other people build the devices and they work and YOU can pay $480 a year and get FTL walkie talkies or some shit sent to your door. How does that change your beliefs?

      • maol@awful.systems
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        What? I was describing how cults/high-control groups react to criticism. I wasn’t trying to assess how accurate their beliefs are. Cults rely on having some beliefs which reasonable people might agree with. Those are the beliefs they present to the public. Cult literature often sounds plausible or benign even if it’s not factually accurate.

        Before there was greater awareness of what cults are and how they work, it wasn’t uncommon for early press about cult groups to conclude that while some of the cult’s beliefs were strange, they had good values and were doing good things for their communities so they were probably harmless. It was only later that stories begin to emerge about the extreme levels of control that cults were exercising over their members, how that control led to the exploitation and abuse of members, and how limited and transactional their “good works” were.

        If a group with that model of control and exploitation claimed to have access to a source of genuinely new and scientifically significant knowledge, they are the worst people to be in control of it, because: a) Cults keep back the larger part of their beliefs from the public in order to extract as much in money, volunteer time and other resources from their members. If a cult did have a direct line to Xenu, it would be directly in their interests to strictly limit how much other people can know about Xenu without paying exorbitant fees and submitting to cult authority. b) Cults are run by people whose ethics are compromised. Cult leaders believe above all else in their right to power and/or wealth and everything else including the health and safety of others comes second. They bully and indoctrinate their subordinates until cult members believe that there is no good and bad so much as there are things that are good for the cult and things that are bad for the cult. If people with such compromised ethics gain access to Xenu’s special information (why are we assuming Xenu will be wise and helpful anyway? In Scientology mythos, Xenu is evil. And also dead.) they will use it to improve the position of the cult and impose their beliefs on as many people as possible. c) due to the above mentioned, it will be extremely difficult for non-members to assess the accuracy of information provided by the cult.

      • David Gerard@awful.systemsM
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        while it’s true that if my dick had wings, it would be a magical flying unicorn pony, so far this hasn’t been shown to be the case at all, so i’m not putting effort into the hypothetical