What use to be the PPA that allowed Ubuntu users to use native .deb packages for Firefox has recently changed to the same meta package that forces installation of Snap and the Firefox snap package.
I am having to remove the meta package, then re-uninstall the snap firefox, then re-uninstall Snap, then install pin the latest build I could get (firefox_116.0.3+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1_arm64.deb) to keep the native firefox build.
I’m so done with Ubuntu.
Yeah they’re all in on snaps. Vote with your distro choice.
What I don’t get is why. What with the recent Red Hat debacle one would think Canonical would make a stronger case as opposed to force feeding the issue.
Because it’s canonical’s thing they’re marketing to server markets
haha… ubuntu on enterprise doesn’t even touch 5% of the market, where 90% of it is RHEL and 5% another is Windows Server and some OSX… so… I don’t think canonical is dumb enough
*please read, enterprise market, not hobbyist. Hobbyist doesn’t make money for ubuntu. Well if the hobbyist is a decision maker in enterprise, they probably will have effect, but the problem is, most of them opt in RHEL/Clones
You got any data to back that up?
I’m afraid they’ll break off Debian one day. Supporting snap is one thing, sabotaging well established user cases (apt installing deb, not being a snap prozy) is another.
Are forks of Ubuntu like Mint and Pop_OS still good choices, or do they suffer from a Chromium-style lack of freedom?
Mint is great. Definitely one of the best distros around. PopOS I’d wait for their new DE. Though with Ubuntu going balls deep on snaps, all those ubuntu based distros hang in the balance. At least Mint got a Debian edition already and they are working on a new version right now. Or just use straight up Debian with flatpaks, which is what I do.
Mint also does not force either
dpkg/apt-get/aptnorflatpak.
Even its GUI installer is a GUI wrapper arounddpkgandflatpak, every application available on both shows a drop-down allowing you to choose between the two.
You can also change its config to allow other sources, in case you want to add something else like snap.
The Pop_Shop gives you the option via a little drop down of flatpak/Deb. I’m not sure if the option is flagged by application developers or system76.
So, as someone that’s been on flavors of Ubuntu/Linux Mint for me personal computer since Breezy Badger, any good distro recommendations? I’ve been using Ubuntu Mate and upgrading in place for the last ~5 years, so I’ve mostly avoided Snaps, but I’m looking to upgrade my computer and I’m probably going to need a fresh install. I’d like to stay on the Ubuntu/Debian tree, but I’ve been using RHEL on my work computer for a while now, so I’m not totally unfamiliar with that distro branch.
Also, should I be as concerned about Flatpaks as everyone seems to be concerned about Snaps?
I was on Ubuntu for almost ten years. The snap BS really started bugging me a few years ago, and I started distro hopping to find a new home.
If you’re really wanting to stick with an Ubuntu derivative, you could try Pop!_OS. They remove Snaps.
I ended up settling on Manjaro. Access to the AUR is pretty awesome.
I can’t comment on specifics. I’m back in linux after several years away in mac land. The snap experience is awful, and confusing. I have not had the same experience with flatpaks. They seem to act more like regular apps that you update. The issue with snap is that firefox will say the snap needs to update, and that the update is pending warning my I only have days (or hours) to use it, but no way to actually do the upgrade. Then it will say its upgrading, but nothing happens. I just keep using firefox, and every once in a while it may say something like the update failed (I honestly can’t remember, since I just ignore any notification with the word ‘snap’ in it since they’re all meaningless). Eventually, when I quit firefox, it might update and quit pestering me. But how knows? Maybe it won’t upgrade, and then I’ll open it again and it won’t be upgraded.
Flatpaks, I can just update in the package GUI (Discover for me, since KDE) alongside other updates, and we roll on.
Distro-wise, I dunno :/ I like ubuntu cause its more standardized in terms of software availability — most things will support an ubuntu package. However, I’m really considering just jumping into debian and going with the rolling releases.
Check out VanillaOS. I think it’s pretty neat. Their webpage doesn’t really get into the benefits as much as I think they should, but a very quick summary is that it leverages distrobox and some custom package manager to allow you to seamlessly install and run packages from other distros. It’s also kind of an immutable OS (but not really). It lets you pick which types of apps you want during the install (snaps, fltapak, AppImage, etc)
I am not super in the loop about why people are so against snaps, but I don’t like the centralized nature of them, and if that’s also the general concern, then flatpak should be fine, since it’s decentralized.
I saw a couple youtube videos about VanillaOS; I could certainly find you one of them if you want to know more.
Why do you say it’s “not really” immutable? It is immutable with an A/B partitioning system using ABRoot.
You can disable it to install stuff if you want.
That was true with Almost, but they’ve now switched to ABRoot, which uses overlays instead. https://documentation.vanillaos.org/docs/ABRoot/
rpm-ostree does this longgg way before
True, but how is that relevant? ABRoot has its own benefits and drawbacks over OSTree.
Linux Mint doesn’t do snaps, you can add them but they are more flatpak friendly out of the box (software manager supports deb and flatpak install and upgrades). They also have a Debian edition that is nearly identical once installed.
For stuff like Firefox and other areas Ubuntu is pushing snaps, Mint builds their own deb.
That is to say, if you liked Mint there’s not a big reason not to use it.
I was a Xubuntu user for about 15 years but have an old EeePC running Debian.
I just recently moved my main, home computer (10+ yo EliteBook) to Debian 12 and am very happy. I will be soon moving my amateur radio “shack” computer (bought last year) to Debian as well.
Forcing Snaps and Snaps’ terrible usage of disk space (in my experience) is what made me move. The annoying Firefox update warning only served to aggravate me further.
I do use a couple Flatpaks (did with Ubuntu as well) but it was my choice - not a requirement. I haven’t had any disk use problems or bad experiences with them.
I hear ya and have recently been scaling-back my personal use of Ubuntu. I am a long-time Debian user for servers (since around the time potato was released), but always found it far too “long in the tooth” for use on a desktop. When Ubuntu first came out, it filled that gap perfectly and it was always my recommendation to people that wanted/needed to use Linux and needed it to “just work”. This is especially the case with laptops. However, times have changed and vanilla Debian is actually a viable distro as long as you are not on the bleeding edge hardware-wise and/or don’t want/need the very latest desktop software.
For my personal desktop, I’ve actually been using Linux Mint since around the time Ubuntu switched to Unity. From the moves Mint has been making lately, it seems that they are also wary of Canonical (i.e. having to revert things like snap out of their Ubuntu base). Mint has always been hedging their bets through their LMDE release, so I would not be surprised if they cut over vanilla Debian as their base sometime soon. I have LMDE on some older machines and it works great (they are still based on bullseye, last I checked).
Flatpak won’t replace RPM on Fedora, so, use Fedora… and be happy, or Nobara for gaming
Imo avoid Mint. If you like apt/debs PopOS.
If you don’t care about debs Fedora is an awesome distro. I’ve used it for several years and upgrades never go bad.
Why avoid Mint?
Imagine having to fight your OS to do what you want. True Windows experience.
It’s no wonder Canonical is partnering up with Microsoft to EEE Linux
You know what, enough is enough. Snaps run like shit in my system (IDK/DC why), I hate companies forcing their shit down my throat, and I was planning a clean reinstall anyway from Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04. Might as well use the opportunity to go back to Debian. Or Mint. Or Mint Debian Edition. Who knows.
Next on the news, Ubuntu (“humanity”) gets renamed to Amasimba (“shit”). /s
Feeling bold? Try MenuetOS, it even claims to have an http client.
TempleOS and give it a try. The prophet Terry will be smilling from the Heaven TempleOS
After using it since Lucid Lynx 10.04, I switched from Ubuntu to Mint last weekend. I’m lazy about distros these days, and I really didn’t want to switch, but Firefox instability was driving me nuts. The web browser must be reliable, IMO. It’s a fundamental requirement for a desktop OS, and this problem didn’t exist before snaps.
There are several high quality community run distributions which aren’t beholden to corporate tools.
I warned you guys. “It’s so easy, just do these three steps if you don’t like snaps” but then later they tighten the vise
Yeah. I switched away from Ubuntu for all this crap.
I moved to Fedora for my laptop & desktop, and Debian for my home server. I’m considering switching everything to Debian eventually, but there’s a couple dedicated repos that make using Fedora on my laptop much easier for now.
Hot take: PPAs suck and snaps/flatpaks are better.
With PPAs, inevitably some repo that hasn’t been updated since 2015 causes dependency conflicts and you have to sit there and troubleshoot, or pick between the software you need and actually having an OS that’s not EOL. With snaps, you can keep your decade old dependencies all bundled up and still upgrade your system even if the package maintainer has abandoned it.
The issue people have with snaps isn’t the containerization or the bundles, but the proprietary backend. There is no way to point the snaps at a different store other than the one canonical controls. Canonicals forcing snaps on people pisses a lot of people off because it’s a blatant power grab, an attempt to get people dependent on something they have control over in a microsoft-esque move. Flatpaks and docker don’t have that issue.
Hot take: it doesn’t feel nice to have a change forced.
It should be the personal preference of the user to decide whether to use native or snap/flatpak. If native package manager decide to not support the package any longer it would be better to make user aware and stop maintaining app, than to install a snap package. This is a user’s decision.
Also this can have far reaching consequences. Imagine you cannot use/install snaps on your machine due some reason, what now?
I tried so hard to embrace snaps and flatpak. I really did. But the snap service kept bogging down. Installs specifically of Firefox were ponderously slow to start up. And ultimately I ended up with regular installs, PPAs, snaps, and flatpaks all together with their own daemons, update paths, and quirks sucking up my system bandwidth and emotional resources. System was constantly slow. Felt like I was running Windows.
I flipped over to endeavours, really enjoying it. Feels like Ubuntu did in the earlier years. Great support community, lots of choice, but a straightforward path to just using your system if that’s what you’re there for. And the same computer runs a good 25% faster.
Or how about… they each have their advantages and disadvantages, and therefore are each better suited to different uses and it doesn’t have to be a competition?
So your saying a Snap based Firefox use case is limited to downloading a different browser… so it’s effectively IE6? I agree, if that’s what you are saying.
PPAs suck, no doubt. But the thing is, if snap is so superior, just switch your whole distribution over to it and be done with it. Don’t do this underhanded switcheroo with individual packages spread over so many years.
The crux here is ultimately that snap just doesn’t look to be up to the task of replacing
.deb, otherwise they’d have already done it. But they still want their proprietary appstore, so they have to make snap relevant by force.Valid opinion and immutable distros like silverblue might be where the future is headed.
It’s not the point though, I’m not going with a distro that tries to force their proprietary solution on me.
Not a fan of immutable distros like Silverblue because you’re giving a lot of control to the upstream, unless you have the ability and time to maintain those system images yourself. And if you’re doing that, except for within an organization, there’s not a huge reason to not just use a traditional distro.
If you don’t want that control, they’re great.
In NixOS you can do an overlay and just make your own package. If the package works, you can submit it to the NUR. If it’s good, you can maintain it in the official channel. I’m doing both, the crappy fork of some GUI is in the NUR, the underlying service is maintained by me in nixpkgs
I can agree with that only if they solved the problems with extensions and a few other features that were not working with the snap version. If they did not, then they are assholes.
I use keepass to fill login forms, and that does not work with the snap version.
Just curious if you know why? I thought snap was just a package format, not a siloed container.
Yes, that is the acceptable use case. Aging, I maintained software in a usable form. Not “we’re showing off our container engine so everyone has to use it now”.
I haven’t had any problems with using Snap. I am currently switching from Chrome to Firefox. Firefox has ran great with Snaps so far.
But I also have an Nvidia RTX 3080. The Linux community hates both Snap and Nvidia. But they are working fine for me.
I tried PopOS but they didn’t have the current drivers for my Nvidia card, so I switched back to Ubuntu. This was about a year or so ago
The NVIDIA driver in Pop!_OS is currently 535.98. I’ve been using a RTX 3080 with Pop!_OS since the pandemic lockdown.
I am at work and can’t check the driver version but they sound like the current one.
How is Steam’s new big picture mode running for you under Pop!OS? I used to run Wayland with Steam’s old big picture mode but had to go back to x because it wouldn’t work.
I’m on ARM, arm64 to be more specific. There’s no native Widevine package for the browsers. There is a way to rip it from the new chromeOS for arm64, and to then plug it into chromium and firefox… but not with snap firefox. And to top it off, flatpak doesn’t even have firefox or thunderbird for arm64.
Hot take: PPAs suck
Agreed. I’d rather install manually than use a third-party PPA. I’ve had way too many problems, especially when it comes time for an OS upgrade.
snaps/flatpaks are better
I see this as a false dichotomy. The point of a distro is to have a wide array of stuff tested and available in official repositories. If the official repositories only contain half-assed snap ports, what’s the point? I either suffer with a shitty Firefox or jump through more hoops than ever before to install it from external sources? Ugh.
I’m on Ubuntu again, and I’ve had it up to my eyeballs with snaps. When the time comes to upgrade again, I’m either going back upstream to Debian, or downstream to a de-snapped Ubuntu derivative.
LibreWolf is a Firefox fork with features removed which we don’t want (Telemetry, Pocket, …) and a few (privacy) features enabled (which can be deactivated if they’re too annoying). I didn’t had any issues with Firefox extensions as well.
I’m currently using it on Debian and it runs smoothly. Recent Ubuntu versions are also supported and you can install them via your package manager, see here.
I’ve recently distro hopped and the new distro came with Firefox preinstalled (had arch before but with xfs and wanted btrf snapshots).
Do you think its telemetry is so bad? I want to help Mozilla to some extent to keep them working on Firefox as I think Librewolf isn’t showing much usage or support for Firefox itself.
@hornedfiend @Seltsamsel That’s a good question and got me curious. I had a look at Telemetry collection and deletion from Mozilla. You can enter
about:telemetryin the address bar to see what Firefox is collecting (even if it is not being sent).You shouldbea able to turn off from settings. More options are present in the config. You can find github guides doing more hardening for sedurity and privacy.
Not sure about librewolf specifically but most of these firefox forks do these initial setups for you and maybeave a couple of addons preinstalled. You would still be using firefox. Beyond crash reports and some reduced usage metrics turning them off should hinder firefox much.
Time to switch to Mint ( or Debian ). I have not like Ubuntu for a while but this forced match to snaps seems too much.
I use Arch myself. I have been considering trying Debian Stable with Distrobox / Arch. The stability of Debian with a totally current and massive package inventory ( thank you AUR ) sounds like perhaps the best of all worlds.
This is on an arm64 (m1) platform, in a VM.
yay! another company damaging itself!
I’m a bit confused to see that the hate falls entirely on ubuntu. Isn’t the change in the ppa of mozillateam, owned by mozilla?
Was there even a change to the Firefox PPA? I am not seeing a change.
I like the approach Pop OS takes. Their software store lets you choose between deb or flatpak when you install software. I’ve had issues with flatpak versions of some software, and flipping to the deb package usually fixes it.
Fedora does the same thing where you can choose between RPM or Flatpak. The only flatpak package I’ve ever had problems with was OnlyOffice, and the issue was that the scaling was blown way out of proportions. Switching to the RPM version resolved that.
Mint does this, too!
@Linuturk @PseudoSpock My problem here is that I don’t understand the purpose of flatpak when Deb seems to have everything from my experience, but I’d love to be proven wrong.
- Flatpaks are usually fresher than point release distro packages
- Flatpaks are distro-agnostic
- Flatpaks are easily containerized for increased security and privacy
- Flatpaks can guarantee you have a known-good dependency chain directly tested by the developers/maintainers themselves
- Flatpaks can be installed and managed entirely in userspace
@bear
Thank you for the very clean and clear explanation. I’ll have to give them another chance.All of that is good but you are overlooking the small detail that installing flatpack implies using up a lot more disk space than just pulling a distro package.
I can point one specific example with libre office: 3.9GB for the pack vs 785MB for the .deb.
We can argue disk space nowadays is cheap but overloading a machine with duplicated packages also goes against the main goal of running a Linux.
When I first started using it, one of the talking points was that Linux kept the system clean of clutter and that improved longevity for the hardware and delivered stability by not having unnecessary and unused or orphaned and redundant libraries and dependencies.
With flatpacks we get the latest and greatest - I’m a debian fan and I hurt for not getting more up to date software - but we are carting in a ton of junk that should not be necessary.
And the container/sandbox part is not that great, apparently. Debian wiki links to this to further educate/alert on the down sides of flatpacks. Debian is not the ultimate bearer of truth but they do move a lot of respect.
The 3.9GB is not just libreoffice, that number also includes runtimes. At most you would only install maybe around half of your host systems’s packages in runtimes for all the apps you use. There shouldn’t be any more usage than that. And even less if you stick to apps that fit your DE. Like if I just stuck to apps that used the gnome runtimes, I would have a pretty minimal installation.
Unfortunately, the dependency problem is really hard to solve, and at least they deduplicate what they can. Everything else works perfectly as well besides some minor issues with the sandbox connecting to the host system in certain edge cases.
Also please don’t link flatkill, it’s woefully outdated and every point on there has been addressed for years; it should be taken down.
and better than snaps in experience…
- Some software is on the Flathub instead of on Debian’s repos, so sometimes the choice is between Flatpak, AppImage and Snap.
When a project doesn’t publish a deb or other native package, or when the flatpak is much newer and has features you need.
Flatpacks include the dependencies with the application. So different flatpacks may have the same libraries over and over, wasting space. RPM/DEB install just the application and each dependency is a separate package, and packages that use the same dependency will share the one copy. So flatpack is better for consistency when running the app because everyone is running the same dependency version, and space isn’t as much of an issue anymore with nearly everything having more than enough storage.
Flatpak share dependencies when they have same version, so they aren’t wasting space. e
I get that people don’t like being forced, but otherwise I couldn’t care less about Firefox snap vs deb. All problems I once had have been ironed out. On the contrary, I like sticking to the “recommended” path with more developer focus and hopefully higher stability. For my usecases I have zero problems with snap.
For one, the snap version is 115 instead of 116, so it’s reverting me to an older version, which makes firefox want to wipe my profile. Not ok. Two, I was purposely using the Mozillateam PPA to get non snap installations, and they up and changed that on us with no warning. Then there is the matter that firefox as a snap is slower. And finally, I can’t add the Widevine for arm64 plugin to the snap.
Snap for browsers is a terrible idea.
Smart card support is still completely broken. I kinda need that to use Linux for my work PC.
If it works for you, fine. I still have this bug to deal with which makes snaps completely unusable in our environment.
Maybe I should try petitioning for us to at least use Linux Mint.
Same for our student PCs - As soon as the setup includes network homes snap becomes completely unusable. Applications just crash on startup because snap doesn’t allow them to access the user’s home directory
Yup, also student PCs with home on network share here (:
But always remember, “Snap is production ready and enterprise grade” or whatever
I also hate that anyone would side for snap based browser installation, and that any of you are upvoting it is horribly icky.
Can you articulate why?
I like my apps to be contained somehow. I don’t like all the choices canonical made with snap, but I like containment.
Your responses here tho, yeah. Icky.
I like some things as flatpak or appimage. But not my browsers, I use a hacked in widevine plugin.
Ubuntu was my first-ever training-wheels gateway to Linux. I started from 8.04 Hardy Heron, and it felt like such a counter-culture move back then and I wanted to be part of the ‘cool’ edgy goth kids that DGAF about the mainstream normies.
15 years later, I still daily-drive windows, but I have many linux boxes for various specialist use-cases, mainly for scripting or self-hosting services, and still have 22.04 server versions running here and there. But this will be my last version of Ubuntu, and the only reason its still there is because migrating them is going to be no fun.
The Ubuntu today feels like a completely different animal than when I started. My breaking point was the ‘upgrade to pro’ message on every
aptrun. I DON’T WANT TO SIGN UP FOR YET ANOTHER METERED ACCOUNT. I use Linux to escape all the mainstream commercialism and monetization once in a while when I’m up for it. Next thing I know, it starts popping up in Linux OS’s and even terminals asking me to login with an account so that I can be monetized.Don’t get me wrong, I know people need to eat and companies need revenue streams to pay their staff. Linux was my occasional escape back to my engineering and tinkering roots, but corporatism is creeping in like what happens to all good things (eventually).
Windows as daily driver?!? :(
Yes indeed, it just works when I need it to. Just 10 minutes ago I regretted installing Arch as I had some trouble trying to get my WH1000XM4 to connect. I was able to figure it out eventually as I was missing a bunch of missing packages for bluetooth and bluetooth audio that for some reason archinstall decided wasn’t part of the core packages. There was zero prompts from KDE as to why the pairing was failing and I had to figure out with some trial and error which ones were missing and which ones I needed. And after doing all that I still couldn’t get LDAC to work.
Seriously reflecting on my life choices right now, should have stuck to a distro with some sensible defaults when I just need shit to work. Of all the problems people have with M$, windows always just worked for me. Perhaps Linux and I just aren’t fated to be together. I always come back a couple of times a year to try out the state of Linux and while it has gotten a whole lot better, its always these little gotchas that result in me telling myself “maybe next year will be the year of linux”, which has been happening for the past ~15 years for me now.
Yeah… For years I already suggested anything good but Ubuntu to those interested in trying Linux, but now I’m going to directly tell them not to touch it. Sure, you’ve got lots of online discussions from the past 20-ish years of people teaching each other how to install PPAs for up-to-date versions of programs or drivers and that’s sweet. But how about a distro where that stuff is just available out of the box and one that doesn’t force you to use snaps as if they didn’t cause issues left and right?
