Me when I see a serious issue being brought up “BuT wHaT aBoUt ThAt OtHeR iSsUe”
Feel free to make a post about androcide, to start a conversation and get data, but only ever bringing it up when femicides are discussed is a tactic that only serves to stall conversations and make sure nothing gets done for anyone.
Or people could stop making not gendered issues into gendered issues, like the sexist fucks they are. There’s a very specific and insidious reason the narrative has switched from “domestic violence” to “violence against women” despite women being provably more safe than men in 99% of contexts, and only a minuscule fraction of deaths by violence. It’s a sexist intentional exclusion of an entire gender, for no good reason.
Ah yes, the famous sexism against dudes that every Italian man experiences in their daily life. In a country where famously women’s privilege has always trumped men and 99% of men are suffering from domestic abuse. I quite remember it too having grown up in Rome and Naples.
My man, Italy has always had a massive issue with femicides and violence against women. There’s an article right there above these comments with some numbers to start with, there are other sources as well. I’d be happy to see the numbers for 99% of cases where men are being abused by their partner more than women, and if the issue is indeed this massive than please make a post and let’s discuss it as well as how to fix it. I’m sure you’ve been discussing it and trying to do something about it every day, but bringing it up when the very gendered issue of femicides in Italy is brought up is just bad form, please link me to your post!
Just curious. Why do you think young men turn to violence when they feel like they’ve lost control of a situation? Do you think they do it because it’s just in their nature, or because many might have found themselves in situations where discussion gets ignored, pleading makes things worse, running inspires pursuit, and aggression made it all stop?
I’m not saying this to diminish the problem of domestic violence against women, or as an attempt to argue against any of the statistics. I just think angrily blaming men for violence rather than attempting to understand how such a problem manifests in the first place will not make anything safer for anyone.
(I hope I don’t regret jumping in on this discussion.)
Oh by all means there’s really no problem if you’re genuine in your question. And yes it’s 100% undeniable that all the issues are linked to one another just because society do be like that. But my issue with the other guy is that whataboutism is a real tactic that halts discussions and it really felt like they were in bad faith assessing that 99% of times men recieved more conjugal violence than women.
Anywya yeah to get back on point your question is absolutely valid! And actual movement for social change and feminism doesn’t just angrily blame men with no reason, toxic male socialization is a real problem for men as well as women, stunting their emotional growth/fostering anger as the only good emotion/not allowing them to express themselves while simultaneously putting a lot of pressure on being “a real man” that gets the girl, gets the job done without complaining and makes money while having time for family. It’s extremely harmful especially with the existence of “alpha male” gurus preying on those feelings. Italy has a double wammy of the religion with the church and the Vatican being right there and it’s influence is very strong. These men need help and the unfair hand they’re dealt to be addressed. However only ever bringing it up when women’s issues are brought up is a bad faith use of a legitimate issue only aimed at stunting progress and conversation. Maybe it’s not the most elegant example but the barbie movie of last summer is an interesting example of a piece of media that addresses the fact that certain types of male socialization is harmful to everyone if you can approach it with an open mind.
There’s also an argument to be made for the point that women issues are also a touch more sensitive because while men do overall die the more brutal deaths and the most often, it is also due to the man dominated world we have created.
Maybe it’s not the most elegant example but the barbie movie of last summer is an interesting example of a piece of media that addresses the fact that certain types of male socialization is harmful to everyone if you can approach it with an open mind.
Imagine the same points being made in a different movie, without all that Barbie Girl Power. In a movie not marketed towards gals. Just doesn’t happen. Pretty much all the male hero arcs in (non-kid) media are geared towards the female gaze and phantasies, not issues actual men face. And why not of course we live in capitalism and that’s what sells the most tickets. No, “guy saves the day” doesn’t really get men off, by and large “the roof for once doesn’t need fixing and I can kick back” is way more attractive.
while simultaneously putting a lot of pressure on being “a real man” that gets the girl,
Meanwhile, gals are asking “where are all the real men gone”. Everyone is willing to tell you versions of “this is how it works” without actually understanding the issue, from “just open up” (which gets you ignored at best, cast out at worst), to “just punch everything”, which of course also doesn’t work.
There is a distinct lack of solutions, or even a desire to build a new tradition of behaviour that does not require ideological buy-in, or only works for abusive couples (like Dworkin and her victim). Things that align with instinct. E.g. you can’t simply demand non-violence and then only look at physical violence: What’s a guy to do if a gal becomes psychologically abusive? That’s the point where “Real men don’t hit woman, we tickle” then suddenly makes a ton of sense. You don’t get to attack me at my weak spot and not get a proportional response.
My two cents? Difference feminism has been dismissed prematurely. Of course, get rid of all the ancient toxic normative shit the groups that brought it up brought with them, but fail to include difference on a fundamental level and well-meant but absolutely counterproductive advise such as “just open up” will never vanish due to a structural incapability to see the other side as you insist that it’s the same as you: Way worse than essentialising a banana as a banana is essentialising it as an apple. That’s also how you get shit like the new Mulan: Because apparently the only way a gal can ever achieve anything is to be born magical so that she can fight like a guy. I mean it kinda works as a transmasc egg fantasy but they should’ve just kept the old story, or, better yet, not make a re-make at all, as the old story did show how a gal can, indeed, save the day, with brains and guts instead of brawn or magic (and of course the new one’s a Mary Sue but I wanted to complain about theme, not just shoddy writing). Am I beginning to rant? Probably better stop.
Me when I see a serious issue being brought up “BuT wHaT aBoUt ThAt OtHeR iSsUe”
Feel free to make a post about androcide, to start a conversation and get data, but only ever bringing it up when femicides are discussed is a tactic that only serves to stall conversations and make sure nothing gets done for anyone.
Or people could stop making not gendered issues into gendered issues, like the sexist fucks they are. There’s a very specific and insidious reason the narrative has switched from “domestic violence” to “violence against women” despite women being provably more safe than men in 99% of contexts, and only a minuscule fraction of deaths by violence. It’s a sexist intentional exclusion of an entire gender, for no good reason.
But you do you!
Ah yes, the famous sexism against dudes that every Italian man experiences in their daily life. In a country where famously women’s privilege has always trumped men and 99% of men are suffering from domestic abuse. I quite remember it too having grown up in Rome and Naples.
My man, Italy has always had a massive issue with femicides and violence against women. There’s an article right there above these comments with some numbers to start with, there are other sources as well. I’d be happy to see the numbers for 99% of cases where men are being abused by their partner more than women, and if the issue is indeed this massive than please make a post and let’s discuss it as well as how to fix it. I’m sure you’ve been discussing it and trying to do something about it every day, but bringing it up when the very gendered issue of femicides in Italy is brought up is just bad form, please link me to your post!
Just curious. Why do you think young men turn to violence when they feel like they’ve lost control of a situation? Do you think they do it because it’s just in their nature, or because many might have found themselves in situations where discussion gets ignored, pleading makes things worse, running inspires pursuit, and aggression made it all stop?
I’m not saying this to diminish the problem of domestic violence against women, or as an attempt to argue against any of the statistics. I just think angrily blaming men for violence rather than attempting to understand how such a problem manifests in the first place will not make anything safer for anyone.
(I hope I don’t regret jumping in on this discussion.)
Oh by all means there’s really no problem if you’re genuine in your question. And yes it’s 100% undeniable that all the issues are linked to one another just because society do be like that. But my issue with the other guy is that whataboutism is a real tactic that halts discussions and it really felt like they were in bad faith assessing that 99% of times men recieved more conjugal violence than women.
Anywya yeah to get back on point your question is absolutely valid! And actual movement for social change and feminism doesn’t just angrily blame men with no reason, toxic male socialization is a real problem for men as well as women, stunting their emotional growth/fostering anger as the only good emotion/not allowing them to express themselves while simultaneously putting a lot of pressure on being “a real man” that gets the girl, gets the job done without complaining and makes money while having time for family. It’s extremely harmful especially with the existence of “alpha male” gurus preying on those feelings. Italy has a double wammy of the religion with the church and the Vatican being right there and it’s influence is very strong. These men need help and the unfair hand they’re dealt to be addressed. However only ever bringing it up when women’s issues are brought up is a bad faith use of a legitimate issue only aimed at stunting progress and conversation. Maybe it’s not the most elegant example but the barbie movie of last summer is an interesting example of a piece of media that addresses the fact that certain types of male socialization is harmful to everyone if you can approach it with an open mind.
There’s also an argument to be made for the point that women issues are also a touch more sensitive because while men do overall die the more brutal deaths and the most often, it is also due to the man dominated world we have created.
I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to type all that up. I feel like I better understand your perspective, and I generally agree with it.
Imagine the same points being made in a different movie, without all that Barbie Girl Power. In a movie not marketed towards gals. Just doesn’t happen. Pretty much all the male hero arcs in (non-kid) media are geared towards the female gaze and phantasies, not issues actual men face. And why not of course we live in capitalism and that’s what sells the most tickets. No, “guy saves the day” doesn’t really get men off, by and large “the roof for once doesn’t need fixing and I can kick back” is way more attractive.
Meanwhile, gals are asking “where are all the real men gone”. Everyone is willing to tell you versions of “this is how it works” without actually understanding the issue, from “just open up” (which gets you ignored at best, cast out at worst), to “just punch everything”, which of course also doesn’t work.
There is a distinct lack of solutions, or even a desire to build a new tradition of behaviour that does not require ideological buy-in, or only works for abusive couples (like Dworkin and her victim). Things that align with instinct. E.g. you can’t simply demand non-violence and then only look at physical violence: What’s a guy to do if a gal becomes psychologically abusive? That’s the point where “Real men don’t hit woman, we tickle” then suddenly makes a ton of sense. You don’t get to attack me at my weak spot and not get a proportional response.
My two cents? Difference feminism has been dismissed prematurely. Of course, get rid of all the ancient toxic normative shit the groups that brought it up brought with them, but fail to include difference on a fundamental level and well-meant but absolutely counterproductive advise such as “just open up” will never vanish due to a structural incapability to see the other side as you insist that it’s the same as you: Way worse than essentialising a banana as a banana is essentialising it as an apple. That’s also how you get shit like the new Mulan: Because apparently the only way a gal can ever achieve anything is to be born magical so that she can fight like a guy. I mean it kinda works as a transmasc egg fantasy but they should’ve just kept the old story, or, better yet, not make a re-make at all, as the old story did show how a gal can, indeed, save the day, with brains and guts instead of brawn or magic (and of course the new one’s a Mary Sue but I wanted to complain about theme, not just shoddy writing). Am I beginning to rant? Probably better stop.