Hamas’ brutal attacks in Israel on October 7 killed at least 1,400 people and the group took more than 200 hostages, according to Israeli authorities. In the wake of the assault, Israel launched an aerial bombardment of Gaza that Palestinian health officials say has killed more than 5,000 people. Israel also announced a “complete siege” on the enclave, withholding vital supplies of water, food and fuel.

  • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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    1 year ago

    The lack of fuel is caused by Israeli illegal blockage on Gaza (which is also a war crime btw). Yes, there is a chance the military side of Hamas has fuel tucked away, but the main cause is still Israel stopping any goods from entering.

    By the end of today, if volunteers can no longer bring fuel to the hospitals, about 130 babies are risking death within minutes without incubators. Let’s not fucking kid ourselves… Israel is the problem. Whatever Hamas “steals” as you claim (something the UNRWA later denied) is only a drop in the ocean when we talk about 2 million residents who haven’t gotten basic needs that would normally flow into Gaza on a daily basis.

    What good is it doing anyone if everything there will just be stolen by Hamas and then used for further attacks?

    Those 130 babies will literally not die. For starters.

    • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      How are you ignoring the fact that Hamas takes the fuel. The UN just said they had their fuel stolen. So those babies will die, more Israelis will die, and more Palestinians will die.

      If the UN had forces guarding supplies and stopping theft, that might be different. But you are asking Israel to allow in supplies that are be and will continue to be stolen and used in attacks against Israel. Ignoring that it will not save civilians.

      • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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        1 year ago

        So why doesn’t Israel distribute fuel to civilian Palestinians in Gaza?

        • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Because they’d be attacked, kidnapped, and/or killed. Seriously what kind of question is this? How do you propose they go into Gaza, distribute the aid, and not get attacked. Hamas is rolling right up to the aid and stealing it. Are you suggesting Israel completely occupy the region and maintain security in order to distribute aid?

        • mwguy@infosec.pub
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          1 year ago

          Because their government, Hamas, is in charge of that. The logistics to distribute fuel would require reoccupation of the Gaza Strip.

          • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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            1 year ago

            Ah yes for Israel to give humanitarian aid it has to commit 2-3 more war crimes.

          • hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest
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            1 year ago

            I feel like we’re missing the part where Israel could just turn the power back on… if Hamas has fuel to run their weapons what is even the point of cutting electricity?

            • mwguy@infosec.pub
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              1 year ago

              Generally, as a competent government, you don’t attack and call for the genocide of your neighbors; starting a war. And then expect that neighbor to fund your war effort.

              • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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                1 year ago

                Here we have someone trying to say that withholding food and medicine and fuel for 2.2m people, half of which are children, is the same as not funding your enemy’s war efforts.

                Fuck me sideways.

                • mwguy@infosec.pub
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                  1 year ago

                  Turns out food, fuel and medicine are considered dual purpose goods. They have civilian purposes and they have military applications. When you declare a war against your neighbor; you shouldn’t expect that neighbor to fund, at it’s own expense, your economy.

            • mwguy@infosec.pub
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              1 year ago

              Hamas steals fuel supplies from the UN in Gaza. So supplying the UNWRA fuel is going to give Hamas more fuel.

              If the UN want a humanitarian aid they need to send blue hats entitled to protect the aid like they do in Africa.

    • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      If they actually get it. Hamas has already shown they will take it and not give it to their citizens.

      Unless Hamas decides to prioritize its citizens, there is nothing the world can do and they are dead.

      • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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        1 year ago

        Hamas has already shown they will take it and not give it to their citizens.

        So, to Israel, are Gazans less important? Because Israel as already shown they will bomb the Rahah checkpoint and not allow fuel in knowing full well it’s needed for generating electricity and providing clean water?

        I’m genuinely asking: what do you think is Israel’s responsibility towards civilians in Gaza and their own hostages stuck in Gaza as well?

        • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          As with any nation - yes, your citizens are less important than mine.

          I won’t comment on the checkpoint as I am not informed on the full story. I have however formally studied war crime in the general sense (not this specific example though).

          Blockades are legitimate and commonly used in warfare - denying supplies are practical and it can be reasonably assumed they will find their way into the hands of the enemy. Saying that, it must be proportional and cause as little disruption to the civilian population as possible.

          • hamas has shown it will cross borders to kill and abduct civilians, and kill them at a later date (undisputed war crime there).

          • Hamas has shown they will claim aid destined for civilians

          • hamas has shown they will withhold supplies from it citizens

          Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that any supplies crossing the border will be used in direct action against Israel. If the aid was finding its way to civilians, was being utilized for humanitarian reasons and distinctly separately from armed forces supplies it could be argued that the blockade is now illegal. This would also apply if Hamas was no longer a threat.

          Israel responsibility lies with its citizens first. Does it suck for civilians stuck in the middle - absolutely.

        • mwguy@infosec.pub
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          1 year ago

          Israel as already shown they will bomb the Rahah checkpoint and not allow fuel in knowing full well it’s needed for generating electricity and providing clean water?

          If Hamas steals the fuel. Allowing the fuel in is defacto allowing the military your fighting to resupply.

          Hamas, as the governing body of the Gaza Strip, has a duty to supply it’s populace with sufficient good when conducting a war. It’s inability to do so it’s Hamas’ fault, not the fault of the person they declared war upon.

          • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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            1 year ago

            Collective punishment is a war crime. Why is this being forgotten here? Why does Israel get an okay to commit war crimes and blame it on the population and a government the majority of them didn’t even vote for in 2006 (you do the math, 1.1m Gazans are children, and the other 1.1m other adults needed to have been at least 18 in 2006, and on top of that it was a 40% vote, so the excuse you are making is pure BS to be honest… putting the fault on a “governing body” of a population that is not able to govern itself or have free elections since ever, with Israel making every step in their lives infinitely worse and holding out water).

            Israel = genocide.

            • mwguy@infosec.pub
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              1 year ago

              Collective punishment is a war crime. Why is this being forgotten here?

              Because it’s not collective punishment. Collective punishment is things like the Bombing of Dresden or the Battle of Britain where a military/air force explicitly target civilian infrastructure. Declining to supply your enemy isn’t a war crime.

              a government the majority of them didn’t even vote for in 2006

              Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip in 2004/2005. They’ve been self governing since then. Had they (Israel) forced a regime change in the past they would have been criticized by the world for reneging on their commitment to a two state solution. It’s not a great situation, but polling suggests that Hamas is incredibly popular in both the Strip and the West Bank.

    • derpgon@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      I don’t want to sound unemphatic, but would YOU wish to be born to a world like that? I know I’ll get downvoted for this, but I’d like to take a real look for once. Sure, every life is precious, and that part of the world might have different views of what is good and bad about it, but a fucking warzone? It’s like giving birth and taking care of a baby in in Ukraine.

    • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Oh, and blockades are not war crimes and can be reasonably consider proportional to reduce the chances and effect of further attacks against its civilians (which were undoubtedly war crimes).

      Holding the blockade to punish civilians once hamas is no longer a threat would be a war crime, but not there yet.

      • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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        1 year ago

        blockades are not war crimes

        You mean they are regulated by international law. When was the last time you heard about Israel not breaking international law? I’m serious.

        • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yes, the literal definition of crime is against the law.

          I haven’t heard of them breaking the law ever - didn’t hear about Palestine either until they crossed the border a few weeks ago.

            • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Yes, last one i saw was something like 1,500 years of history that lead to this one?

              Unfortunately the blockade we are discussing is only a few weeks old.

              • probablyaCat@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Nah the blockades has been around since 2005 when Hamas took over in Gaza, after Israel demilitarized and demobilized the entire region (this was intended to occur in the west bank as well, but with the way things went in Gaza that idea died). And the blockades has intensified over the years coinciding with attacks.

                After this, we are likely looking at an extended dmz if I give my honest thoughts.

                • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Yeah, your comment isn’t “fuck Israel” so you got downvoted too. This whole post reeks of biased agenda rather than discussions.