Yeah, but because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn’t a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece (you can tell it’s now being pushed as propaganda because it’s been repeated well beyond its newsworthiness and always with the same glamour picture).
The gapping chasm in numbers between those murdered by Israel and those by Hamas is inverted in terms of the disgust they cause in the West exactly because Israeli has a vastly superior propaganda machine.
Thinking people would start wondering why, reliably, 100s of murdered palestinians are portrayed with less emphasys than 1 kidnapped israeli-german teenager.
Yeah. They suck. Having your home and life destroyed sucks, it all sucks that’s why people aren’t rushing to do it.
People don’t actually really want to have a revolution as much as they would like things to get better. And if someone is hurt enough they might not care as much. It’s why we say people are still too comfortable to do it.
People don’t seem to believe she’s still alive. She certainly won’t be in a Gaza hospital, already under blockade, about to be deliberately starved and bombed out by the Israeli army.
Unconscious isn’t exactly that much better regardless.
I’d say the almost glee with which that girl’s horror has been exploited by the “propaganda machine” betrays an inhumanity almost to the level of those parading her around.
Her mother still seems to believe she’s alive and is calling for news about her (hence why I went with “kidnapped”, since frankly I don’t know if she’s dead or alive and in the circus that the poor girl’s fate has been turned into, it’s hard to know where truth ends and “conveninent assumptions” start).
I’m disgusted all around by the inhumanity of doing what was done to her and to those in that party and the inhumanity of using that as justification to, with the calous premeditation that was described here, murder innocent people deemed as “other” and hence lesser.
As I wrote elsewhere, I blame the US and to some extent Europe for not really properly fucking up both sides to such an extent that genuine peace was the only viable option: beyond the moral considerations on only going after the weaker side, not forcing the stronger to take the boot out of the necks of those on the weaker side has just created a situation were thousands of young people literally have nothing to lose from joining a terrorist organisation, so it was a massive act of stupidty.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
This is the most historically ignorant comment I’ve seen this past week. There have been multiple wars in the past century where Arab nations were the aggressor and had the stated goal of genociding the Jews in Israel. Also, the last time the UN actually did something approaching that scale was the Korean War. Absolutely nothing since. They’re incapable of defending an entire nation.
Any plan that involves the disarmament of Israel is just a plan for genocide. Educate yourself, you’re unbelievably ignorant yet you have access to the internet.
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn’t Google the city “camp” or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is “Israel bad, Hamas good.”
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.
The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn’t murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
As her mother is calling for news about her I’ll go with her belief of “not dead” until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - “figurehead” for propaganda. I confess I’m one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly “kidnapped” rather than dead.
I’m glad you’re beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That’s exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those “other” humans most of whom are blamed by association.
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
Literally the first thing the US does in any engagement is cut the power.
It’s not a war crime lol
With certain limitations, parts of a country’s electrical grid can be considered legitimate targets if they are used to power military facilities. This is true even if the targets have a civilian as well as a military purpose, so long as destroying the object would “offer a definite military advantage”
Israeli authorities’ cutting off electricity to Gaza and other punitive measures against Gaza’s civilian population would amount to unlawful collective punishment, which is a war crime, said the Human Rights Watch on 9 October.
As if the US gives a single fuck about war crimes. If we did, at least 5 people from George W. Bush’s administration would be rotting in prison right now.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there’s another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they’re the good guys. 🙄
Why do you keep posting nonsense? Anything about me anybody can judge for themselves from my comments. You look like a moron. Things don’t become your way just cause you say so.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
You know, google for “Anush Apetyan” and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan’s main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and “what are you going to do” on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I’d say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Absolutely agreed. Israel is justified in some measure of response, to prevent future attacks and rescue hostages. They are not justified in the bombing of Gaza that they’ve been doing instead.
The point I was making though is that using Shani Louk as some kind of figurehead is in no way disingenuous. It’s somewhat unfair that Palestine doesn’t have similar figureheads of their own to garner support (and indeed this is a direct result of Israel blocking media access), but that doesn’t mean that what happened to Shani isn’t a valid symbol of everything that was wrong with the attack on Saturday.
No, the reason it’s not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you’ll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they’ve both done barbaric things.
I don’t support either “side” in this.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren’t arguing in good faith, you’ve only come here to spew bullshit.
It’s actually because the “refugee camp” is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
You’re falling for their playbook, their propaganda machine, so to speak. Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
Beyond just ‘not ok’, Israel’s response is playing out exactly how the terrorist’s playbook says the terrorized country should respond: terrorist launches a terrorist attack, terrorized country responds with forced, civilians hit in the crossfire blame the terrorized country and move towards the terrorists.
In the past few days, we have been hering Israeli officials refer to this as their 9/11. What they do not seem to appreciate with their comparison is that the emotion ladden responce the US engaged in after 9/11 proved to be one of the greatest military blunders in the countries history.
If they want to learn a lesson from 9/11, they should address the immediate military threat, fix the security and intelligence failures that allowed the attack to be so successful (such as diverting soldiers away from the Gaza border; and (allegedly) ignoring warnings that Hamas was planning an attack). Once the immediate concerns are addressed, they should back off and allow time for cooler heads to think through what a strategically effective response would look like and implement that.
Unfortunately, such a response is politically difficult in the best of circumstances. Given that the current ruling coalition is almost the definition of hotter heads, built itself up on the promise of “security”, and was already on shaky ground domestically, I don’t think they have many options other than a rash response.
Hopefully they constrain themselves to just responding in Gaza. If they decide to respond by going after Hamas’s supporters in, say Iran, we are looking at a major regional war.
War is horrible and the granparents of today’s Palestinians were unjustly hunted and hurt.
But if Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians and their fighters would not be hiding behind their their own kids and women to protect themselves from retaliation, maybe the fight would take place strictly between combatants or even better, on the social media and internet to show what’s wrong.
And no, it doesn’t matter whether kid is EU, Arabian or any other looking. When there was earthquake not long ago, everyone was sympathetic with middle east looking kids being pulled out of debris.
There’s been an earthquake just a few days ago in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, killing more than 2000 people, and by your comment I can see you don’t even know about it.
And I was arguing against Hamas immediately after it happened, but now I’m arguing against Israel because the original comment is right, they have now adjusted all their propaganda tools to use the events to justify ethnic cleansing with lots of civilian dead right now.
Gazan women and children are not responsible for “their fighters” or Hamas, just as Israeli women and children are not responsible for bombs falling on Gaza.
I’m disgusted with both, but proportionally to their strength.
You missed my point or are trying to twist it.
I have not said that world is informed about everything that happens everywhere all the time. I have said that people feel sad for any hurt kid regardless of colour of their skin and I gave an example which you totally ignored. I could very well blame you for bad things happening to the kids in Mexico or Latin America in general if you aren’t informed about that but that would be stupid wouldn’t it?
The feel sad on different levels. For some kinds of sad billions of military aid are warranted, and for other kinds of sad thoughts and prayers, and there are even situations of “sad, but they had it coming”.
And Germans caused WW2 that had mutliple times higher dead count than all Palestinians together. Yet I don’t see countries like Polland going terrorist against German civilians. The way you think is best, (kill as many children as brutal as possible) will only lead to more casaulties but it won’t make life any better for Palestina’s civilians.
Yeah, but because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn’t a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece (you can tell it’s now being pushed as propaganda because it’s been repeated well beyond its newsworthiness and always with the same glamour picture).
The gapping chasm in numbers between those murdered by Israel and those by Hamas is inverted in terms of the disgust they cause in the West exactly because Israeli has a vastly superior propaganda machine.
Thinking people would start wondering why, reliably, 100s of murdered palestinians are portrayed with less emphasys than 1 kidnapped israeli-german teenager.
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According to these lemmy POS apologists:
“Revolutions are messy”
I’ll remember that when it’s someone they like getting disemboweled.
It’s just messy hun.
I mean, disembowelments have the potential to be extremely messy
Not always, some EU countries went through peaceful revolutions.
Who?
For one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution
There’s general wiki about nonviolent revolutions link
Yeah. They suck. Having your home and life destroyed sucks, it all sucks that’s why people aren’t rushing to do it.
People don’t actually really want to have a revolution as much as they would like things to get better. And if someone is hurt enough they might not care as much. It’s why we say people are still too comfortable to do it.
But this was a cold comment.
How did the post a video of her lifeless body if she’s still alive?
People don’t seem to believe she’s still alive. She certainly won’t be in a Gaza hospital, already under blockade, about to be deliberately starved and bombed out by the Israeli army.
Unconscious isn’t exactly that much better regardless.
we did it reddit
I’d say the almost glee with which that girl’s horror has been exploited by the “propaganda machine” betrays an inhumanity almost to the level of those parading her around.
Her mother still seems to believe she’s alive and is calling for news about her (hence why I went with “kidnapped”, since frankly I don’t know if she’s dead or alive and in the circus that the poor girl’s fate has been turned into, it’s hard to know where truth ends and “conveninent assumptions” start).
I’m disgusted all around by the inhumanity of doing what was done to her and to those in that party and the inhumanity of using that as justification to, with the calous premeditation that was described here, murder innocent people deemed as “other” and hence lesser.
As I wrote elsewhere, I blame the US and to some extent Europe for not really properly fucking up both sides to such an extent that genuine peace was the only viable option: beyond the moral considerations on only going after the weaker side, not forcing the stronger to take the boot out of the necks of those on the weaker side has just created a situation were thousands of young people literally have nothing to lose from joining a terrorist organisation, so it was a massive act of stupidty.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
A foreign military occupation of an entire region in the Middle East to ensure peace.
Does anyone remember how this one goes?
I’ll take standing under a mission accomplished banner on an aircraft carrier for $200.
Absolutely agree. The two sides need to be separated and put in time out.
However disarming Israel is politically impossible when they’re a cyber weapons super power.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
Even if you force Israel to become one single country with both jews and palestinians, there will still be alahuakbar fireworks constantly
Both sides do not want coexistence and that means that gaza et al becomes a slaughter house that everyone ignores
That doesn’t mean ignoring them is the correct answer.
Ohh hey we’re just being openly racist to Muslims again? What is it 2002?
It’s all over Lemmy. It’s clearly allowed.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! …oh, you’re serious.
I mean they can also just keep bombing and torturing each other for the next 100 years, it’s been working so well so far.
Sadly, as history shows, humans actually keep doing just about that.
This is the most historically ignorant comment I’ve seen this past week. There have been multiple wars in the past century where Arab nations were the aggressor and had the stated goal of genociding the Jews in Israel. Also, the last time the UN actually did something approaching that scale was the Korean War. Absolutely nothing since. They’re incapable of defending an entire nation.
Any plan that involves the disarmament of Israel is just a plan for genocide. Educate yourself, you’re unbelievably ignorant yet you have access to the internet.
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
Displacement isn’t genocide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
Seems to fit to me.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn’t Google the city “camp” or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is “Israel bad, Hamas good.”
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
I know what you state, and that’s what you stated.
If that offends you, take a long look in the mirror and sort your life out
Lol ok bud. Can you tell me my star sign too?
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.
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The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn’t murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
And she’s also 30 while somehow being 22. The reporting on this has been atrocious.
Got a link?
Sorry for the German link. It’s the most reliable source I could find, tho.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/shani-deutsche-hamas-israel-100.html
tl;dr her aunt says she’s alive in a hospital. No way to verify. Assumption that she’s alive is based on credit card activity.
Surely credit card activity isn’t a strong indicator.
Of some bearded terrorist guy going to belly dance clubs in Cairo, surely.
Two points:
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
Cutting off power to Palestinians is also a war crime. Why are war crimes only bad when Palestine does them an not when Israel does them 5x as often?
Literally the first thing the US does in any engagement is cut the power.
It’s not a war crime lol
Human Rights Watch is an activist group with no authority.
You are free to agree or disagree with them. Clearly I disagree here, but I do agree with their condemnation of the Palestinian attacks.
As if the US gives a single fuck about war crimes. If we did, at least 5 people from George W. Bush’s administration would be rotting in prison right now.
Yes, it’s still a war crime when we do it.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there’s another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they’re the good guys. 🙄
First, you wrote some incomprehensible bullshit, second, I’m part Jewish.
That sucks that you’re part Jewish and still hate them so much that you go on the internet and support killing them.
Why do you keep posting nonsense? Anything about me anybody can judge for themselves from my comments. You look like a moron. Things don’t become your way just cause you say so.
At least try to pretend you’re here for a real discussion.
You know, google for “Anush Apetyan” and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan’s main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and “what are you going to do” on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I’d say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Absolutely agreed. Israel is justified in some measure of response, to prevent future attacks and rescue hostages. They are not justified in the bombing of Gaza that they’ve been doing instead.
The point I was making though is that using Shani Louk as some kind of figurehead is in no way disingenuous. It’s somewhat unfair that Palestine doesn’t have similar figureheads of their own to garner support (and indeed this is a direct result of Israel blocking media access), but that doesn’t mean that what happened to Shani isn’t a valid symbol of everything that was wrong with the attack on Saturday.
The only reason it’s not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
No, the reason it’s not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you’ll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they’ve both done barbaric things.
I don’t support either “side” in this.
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren’t arguing in good faith, you’ve only come here to spew bullshit.
rephrased…“Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who”. Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.
It’s actually because the “refugee camp” is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
You’re falling for their playbook, their propaganda machine, so to speak. Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
This. All part of the terrorist’s playbook - invoke persecution to radicalise more people.
It doesn’t make Israel’s behavior ok, but the crocodile tears are a bit sickening.
Beyond just ‘not ok’, Israel’s response is playing out exactly how the terrorist’s playbook says the terrorized country should respond: terrorist launches a terrorist attack, terrorized country responds with forced, civilians hit in the crossfire blame the terrorized country and move towards the terrorists.
In the past few days, we have been hering Israeli officials refer to this as their 9/11. What they do not seem to appreciate with their comparison is that the emotion ladden responce the US engaged in after 9/11 proved to be one of the greatest military blunders in the countries history.
If they want to learn a lesson from 9/11, they should address the immediate military threat, fix the security and intelligence failures that allowed the attack to be so successful (such as diverting soldiers away from the Gaza border; and (allegedly) ignoring warnings that Hamas was planning an attack). Once the immediate concerns are addressed, they should back off and allow time for cooler heads to think through what a strategically effective response would look like and implement that.
Unfortunately, such a response is politically difficult in the best of circumstances. Given that the current ruling coalition is almost the definition of hotter heads, built itself up on the promise of “security”, and was already on shaky ground domestically, I don’t think they have many options other than a rash response.
Hopefully they constrain themselves to just responding in Gaza. If they decide to respond by going after Hamas’s supporters in, say Iran, we are looking at a major regional war.
Yeah, everyone is focusing on the brutality of Hamas’ murders instead of the numbers.
I’m sure Hamas would be using airstrikes against Israel, if they could.
War is horrible and the granparents of today’s Palestinians were unjustly hunted and hurt. But if Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians and their fighters would not be hiding behind their their own kids and women to protect themselves from retaliation, maybe the fight would take place strictly between combatants or even better, on the social media and internet to show what’s wrong.
And no, it doesn’t matter whether kid is EU, Arabian or any other looking. When there was earthquake not long ago, everyone was sympathetic with middle east looking kids being pulled out of debris.
There’s been an earthquake just a few days ago in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, killing more than 2000 people, and by your comment I can see you don’t even know about it.
And I was arguing against Hamas immediately after it happened, but now I’m arguing against Israel because the original comment is right, they have now adjusted all their propaganda tools to use the events to justify ethnic cleansing with lots of civilian dead right now.
Gazan women and children are not responsible for “their fighters” or Hamas, just as Israeli women and children are not responsible for bombs falling on Gaza.
I’m disgusted with both, but proportionally to their strength.
You missed my point or are trying to twist it.
I have not said that world is informed about everything that happens everywhere all the time. I have said that people feel sad for any hurt kid regardless of colour of their skin and I gave an example which you totally ignored. I could very well blame you for bad things happening to the kids in Mexico or Latin America in general if you aren’t informed about that but that would be stupid wouldn’t it?
The feel sad on different levels. For some kinds of sad billions of military aid are warranted, and for other kinds of sad thoughts and prayers, and there are even situations of “sad, but they had it coming”.
They could be part of IDF as military service is mandatory for every israeli whatever the gender (~3y for men and 2y for women).
so don’t speak in term of gender but in term of class.
Strictly speaking, there are very few women in the combat units of the IDF.
But yes, you understood me correctly. I meant civilians.
Israel has killed 22x more Palestinians than Isralies have died from all pro-Palestine groups https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
And Germans caused WW2 that had mutliple times higher dead count than all Palestinians together. Yet I don’t see countries like Polland going terrorist against German civilians. The way you think is best, (kill as many children as brutal as possible) will only lead to more casaulties but it won’t make life any better for Palestina’s civilians.
Just look at this comment, Hamas clearly has the superior propaganda machine.