I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document “the conflict”. Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.
Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.
I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I’m sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author’s/presenters etc.
Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I’m paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else… or is that idea also propaganda lol
I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.
Tbh this gets you down a very weird rabbit hole, especially if you’re in tech. When you start to look at cybersecurity and the direction it’s heading, a lot of cutting edge stuff uses a zero trust framework. cybersecurity as a field has realized that information and data is so ubiquitous at this point that it cannot be trusted at all and has to be authenticated and checked at every step. That’s real defense in depth there; making sure that every level independently audits the information it uses within the context it needs.
But speaking as someone studying cybersecurity and is getting entrenched in the field & community, once you learn how much you can trust trust you really get a baseline level of paranoia. And to be honest, in my opinion the only thing to do is embrace it. It’s difficult and you’ll probably want to fuck off and become Amish, but once you see information as just information to be used, consumed, manipulated, and shared as needed the possibilities really open up. The future is only going to be more information and data dependent. Being able to intuitively tap into that is like a super power.
If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.
Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.
There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.
Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is. Casualties are not even order of magnitudes close. Even the horrific ways in which Israel has tortured and murdered Palestinians is unmatched by Hamas, despite it being a militia rather than an organized army judged by the international community.
Israel has burned children alive, they have officials who bragged about raping and torturing children, they make people destroy their own homes by THEIR OWN HANDS. And this is while Israel has the upper hand, yet it is still the more horrifying of the two by many orders of magnitude. Comparing the two is sickening.
Oh my god that was so fucking funny. Dance near a concentration camp and you deserve to be shot. Literally right on the fence they used to ‘keep out the Palestinians’.
although the rape is not something im chill with, thats fucking evil, they deserved to be judged (but not by israelis).
Kidnapping though is completely justified. Hostage exchange is something they want to do to de-escalate the situation. They said that they would only be killed ‘one for each dead Palestinian’ in any counter-attack. Israel said they didn’t care and started to glass Gaza. Israel is far more murderous than the Hamas ever could be.
Just because there is nuance doesn’t rob any side of being right.
Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side’s leadership respects each other’s existence.
The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn’t really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.
I place some — not uniformly distributed, only on those that do this — blame on the Israeli citizens that knowingly move into a recently captured area. They’re literally colonizing the Palestinians land. I don’t fuck with colonizers.
I’m curious about how this is done. Do they just kick Palestinians out of their homes or do they make new towns or what exactly happens that is so effective at displacing others?
Iirc they literally just take over some land, forcibly remove or execute anyone who won’t leave, and then they move in and start building. Literal colonizer behavior.
Honestly, trying to find a definitive ‘in the right’ of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn’t fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.
Neither are in the right, both suck the further you go back, and both sides have exceptionally long memories. Most likely the only way there will ever be peace is if one side completely destroys the other. I’ll give you the short version:
1.) Arabs (Ethnic Group) in Palestine at the beginning of the 1900’s were under the rule of the Ottomans and had not been their own state in several hundreds of years.
2.) Around this time Jews in Europe were tired of getting shit on and started coming to the region and as it was an Ottoman controlled territory and the Ottomans didn’t want Jews in Europe they were kinda cool with it.
3.) Arabs in Palestine didn’t like the Jews coming from Europe and started attacking and harassing the immigrants.
4.) In 1920 Great Britain took over handling Palestine and they kinda felt the same way as the Ottomans and were ok with Jews going there until Palestinian’s started throwing a fit. Then Great Britain started restricting immigration, but only sort of.
5.) Arabs in Palestine continued attacking and outright killing Jews in Palestine.
6.) WW2 occurs and Jews are like fuck this shit and move in droves to Palestine. Arabs in Palestine erupt into outright genocide and Jews retaliate with equal measure.
7.) Great Britain decides to peace out of the deal and proposes a two state solution. The Jews are thinking about it, but the Palestinians are completely against it.
8.) Right before Great Britain pulls out in 1948 the Jews declare the state of Israel knowing that the Arabs will continue killing them. The 1948 Palestine War kicks off and Palestinian Arabs along with Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others attack Israel. Israel kicks this shit out of them, takes over Egyptian, Syrian, and Lebanon territory. Israel gives back that land, but kicks out most of the Palestinian Arabs.
9.) 1967 comes around and Egypt, Syria and Jordan decide to try again with the support of the kicked out Palestinian Arabs and once again get their asses kicked.
10.) In the 1980’s Israel takes over custodianship of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip (they controlled the areas already, but Egypt took responsibility for taking care of the people). Around this time Israel is debating a one state solution in which peaceful Palestinians would be allowed to become Israeli’s but Palestine is completely against this so it goes no where.
11.) The Oslo Accords took place in 1993 and Palestine formed it’s own government within the West Bank and Gaza. At first they democratically elected a President, Yasser Arafat, who was a socialist nationalist. Yasser and his party won the presidency and later the Legislature because Hamas boycotted the elections since Israel was involved.
12.) The president was supposed to temporarily hold power until the legislature was formed, but the US and Israel favored guy decided to not let go of power to his own party.
13.) Finally people were deposed and resigned which allowed another election of the Legislature in 2006 in which Hamas won 74 out of 132 seats. At this time the stated goal of Hamas was the destruction of Israel, full stop. This sentiment is shared (to this day) by many Arabs in the Middle East including: Iran, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Syria, and others. Hamas declares war on Israel and begins attacks in 2009.
14.) The Gaza strip becomes an extreme Islamic state enforcing Taliban-like rules.
15.) Hamas and their rival party, Fatah, have not had another election since 2006 because the two can’t agree to how the election should be held. From my understanding, Hamas wants a more proportional representation form of government (similar to Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Ireland, Norway, etc) as opposed to a Majoritarian Representation (US style, majority takes all).
16.) Sometime around 2015 Hamas splits into a Political group and a Militant group, they’re still the same but one is the international sob story and the other is a terrorist organization. The political group publicly says they would entertain a two state solution while the militant group still continues to commit terrorist attacks and wants to destroy Israel.
TLDR: From the get go Palestinians were killing Israeli’s until Israeli’s took over. Palestinian’s still kept trying to kill Israel, but now Israel is also responsible for not committing genocide and catches shit every time they don’t just completely let Palestine free. Palestine is a state in which the majority of residents democratically elected a terrorist organization and would happily replace Israel’s Jewish state with an Islamic state similar to Iran. Israel is a mostly right leaning religious state with an ultra nationalist leader. Israelis in general see Palestine as a problem with no solution that they wish they could ignore, but Hamas is pushing them to see Palestine as as a problem they should destroy.
The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.
Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.
Where is a good place to start to learn about this conflict. I have no idea who is in the right here.
I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document “the conflict”. Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.
Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.
https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I’m sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author’s/presenters etc.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I’m paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else… or is that idea also propaganda lol
I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.
Tbh this gets you down a very weird rabbit hole, especially if you’re in tech. When you start to look at cybersecurity and the direction it’s heading, a lot of cutting edge stuff uses a zero trust framework. cybersecurity as a field has realized that information and data is so ubiquitous at this point that it cannot be trusted at all and has to be authenticated and checked at every step. That’s real defense in depth there; making sure that every level independently audits the information it uses within the context it needs.
But speaking as someone studying cybersecurity and is getting entrenched in the field & community, once you learn how much you can trust trust you really get a baseline level of paranoia. And to be honest, in my opinion the only thing to do is embrace it. It’s difficult and you’ll probably want to fuck off and become Amish, but once you see information as just information to be used, consumed, manipulated, and shared as needed the possibilities really open up. The future is only going to be more information and data dependent. Being able to intuitively tap into that is like a super power.
If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.
Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.
There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.
I think you either mean rigor, or rigeuer, which is short for de rigeuer and more related to fashion rather than academic credibility.
yeah lol edited
palestine was there first, Israel is a far right state dedicated to a colonialism of Palestine
Israel is the wrong side.
Removed by mod
Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is. Casualties are not even order of magnitudes close. Even the horrific ways in which Israel has tortured and murdered Palestinians is unmatched by Hamas, despite it being a militia rather than an organized army judged by the international community.
Israel has burned children alive, they have officials who bragged about raping and torturing children, they make people destroy their own homes by THEIR OWN HANDS. And this is while Israel has the upper hand, yet it is still the more horrifying of the two by many orders of magnitude. Comparing the two is sickening.
Oh my god that was so fucking funny. Dance near a concentration camp and you deserve to be shot. Literally right on the fence they used to ‘keep out the Palestinians’.
although the rape is not something im chill with, thats fucking evil, they deserved to be judged (but not by israelis).
Kidnapping though is completely justified. Hostage exchange is something they want to do to de-escalate the situation. They said that they would only be killed ‘one for each dead Palestinian’ in any counter-attack. Israel said they didn’t care and started to glass Gaza. Israel is far more murderous than the Hamas ever could be.
Just because there is nuance doesn’t rob any side of being right.
Removed by mod
what? which part?
They tried nonviolence, and the IDF killed thousands of them for it. Violence is the only option
Wow, you are so stupid. I wish you to be there right now.
I would start shooting as many IDF members as possible
How Palestine became colonized
Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side’s leadership respects each other’s existence.
The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn’t really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.
I place some — not uniformly distributed, only on those that do this — blame on the Israeli citizens that knowingly move into a recently captured area. They’re literally colonizing the Palestinians land. I don’t fuck with colonizers.
I’m curious about how this is done. Do they just kick Palestinians out of their homes or do they make new towns or what exactly happens that is so effective at displacing others?
Iirc they literally just take over some land, forcibly remove or execute anyone who won’t leave, and then they move in and start building. Literal colonizer behavior.
Edited with a source:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands
Honestly, trying to find a definitive ‘in the right’ of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn’t fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.
Here is all clear.
There’s an old crash course world history video about it
Edit: Oh someone already linked it.
Neither are in the right, both suck the further you go back, and both sides have exceptionally long memories. Most likely the only way there will ever be peace is if one side completely destroys the other. I’ll give you the short version:
1.) Arabs (Ethnic Group) in Palestine at the beginning of the 1900’s were under the rule of the Ottomans and had not been their own state in several hundreds of years.
2.) Around this time Jews in Europe were tired of getting shit on and started coming to the region and as it was an Ottoman controlled territory and the Ottomans didn’t want Jews in Europe they were kinda cool with it.
3.) Arabs in Palestine didn’t like the Jews coming from Europe and started attacking and harassing the immigrants.
4.) In 1920 Great Britain took over handling Palestine and they kinda felt the same way as the Ottomans and were ok with Jews going there until Palestinian’s started throwing a fit. Then Great Britain started restricting immigration, but only sort of.
5.) Arabs in Palestine continued attacking and outright killing Jews in Palestine.
6.) WW2 occurs and Jews are like fuck this shit and move in droves to Palestine. Arabs in Palestine erupt into outright genocide and Jews retaliate with equal measure.
7.) Great Britain decides to peace out of the deal and proposes a two state solution. The Jews are thinking about it, but the Palestinians are completely against it.
8.) Right before Great Britain pulls out in 1948 the Jews declare the state of Israel knowing that the Arabs will continue killing them. The 1948 Palestine War kicks off and Palestinian Arabs along with Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others attack Israel. Israel kicks this shit out of them, takes over Egyptian, Syrian, and Lebanon territory. Israel gives back that land, but kicks out most of the Palestinian Arabs.
9.) 1967 comes around and Egypt, Syria and Jordan decide to try again with the support of the kicked out Palestinian Arabs and once again get their asses kicked.
10.) In the 1980’s Israel takes over custodianship of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip (they controlled the areas already, but Egypt took responsibility for taking care of the people). Around this time Israel is debating a one state solution in which peaceful Palestinians would be allowed to become Israeli’s but Palestine is completely against this so it goes no where.
11.) The Oslo Accords took place in 1993 and Palestine formed it’s own government within the West Bank and Gaza. At first they democratically elected a President, Yasser Arafat, who was a socialist nationalist. Yasser and his party won the presidency and later the Legislature because Hamas boycotted the elections since Israel was involved.
12.) The president was supposed to temporarily hold power until the legislature was formed, but the US and Israel favored guy decided to not let go of power to his own party.
13.) Finally people were deposed and resigned which allowed another election of the Legislature in 2006 in which Hamas won 74 out of 132 seats. At this time the stated goal of Hamas was the destruction of Israel, full stop. This sentiment is shared (to this day) by many Arabs in the Middle East including: Iran, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Syria, and others. Hamas declares war on Israel and begins attacks in 2009.
14.) The Gaza strip becomes an extreme Islamic state enforcing Taliban-like rules.
15.) Hamas and their rival party, Fatah, have not had another election since 2006 because the two can’t agree to how the election should be held. From my understanding, Hamas wants a more proportional representation form of government (similar to Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Ireland, Norway, etc) as opposed to a Majoritarian Representation (US style, majority takes all).
16.) Sometime around 2015 Hamas splits into a Political group and a Militant group, they’re still the same but one is the international sob story and the other is a terrorist organization. The political group publicly says they would entertain a two state solution while the militant group still continues to commit terrorist attacks and wants to destroy Israel.
TLDR: From the get go Palestinians were killing Israeli’s until Israeli’s took over. Palestinian’s still kept trying to kill Israel, but now Israel is also responsible for not committing genocide and catches shit every time they don’t just completely let Palestine free. Palestine is a state in which the majority of residents democratically elected a terrorist organization and would happily replace Israel’s Jewish state with an Islamic state similar to Iran. Israel is a mostly right leaning religious state with an ultra nationalist leader. Israelis in general see Palestine as a problem with no solution that they wish they could ignore, but Hamas is pushing them to see Palestine as as a problem they should destroy.
Nobody is, and that’s the wrong question to ask.
The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.
Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.