Didn’t say it was the only thing that provided meaning but you’ll find in a church depression is less prevalent likely due to the sense of meaning and purpose attendees have.
That sense of meaning is something all attendees can achieve because they are taught to. Science doesn’t teach a person how to be okay with their purpose in life, in fact some of the answers science finds may push people further from purpose.
But you know this is the only life you got, right? Your life is finite and coming to an end. Well, for the ones with faith, life never ends. You might have found purpose but many many others won’t be able to. Just like me, an atheist, struggling to deal with the thought of NOTHINGNESS once this is over.
What helps me is considering that I won’t be around to contemplate that nothing. Sure, I dislike that my continuity of experience will eventually end, but, in the ending, there won’t be a me to care anymore.
What helps you would make some people very depressed. It’s great that you don’t need it and can provide your own path through life and death but many others need help.
There’s actual scientific evidence of it helping with depression and lower rates of mental health problems. If you google it you will find not one but many dozen articles discussing links between religion and improved mental health.
Not everyone who needs can work at an amusement park but anyone can find a religion to suit them even in the US.
Nobody said it can’t help. But you’re making a bigger deal of it than it is. The effect is rather small. If you compare it to benefits from science such as having running water, heating, access to medication, etc. It’s not even on the same level.
Besides, not everyone’s mental health is helped by religion. As the studies shows, it’s only a portion of them. And a lot of people are miserable when religion is forced upon them.
Besides, weather or not religion helps with depression has absolutely nothing to do with science not being able to provide a sense of meaning. You’re simply arguing in bad faith here.
If average mental state is the measurement, then we get to include both the positive and the negative effects of religious mentality. Like Jim Jones, and the neverending stream of “posessions” that stem from complete mental conflicts and disconnections from reality – encouraging people’s mental illnesses.
Churches, hiding and covering up relgious negative experiences, cult worship as offshoots, death cults etc.
We pretend like the salem witch hunts were last eon or something, tell people “there are witches, they exist, satan compelled them to do things and they can make you do things.”
All of a sudden a whole village was being “tempted” by satan, and it was all these witches fault.
Just gotta come up with a story as to how “it’s not your fault” and people will fall over themselves to figure out how they fit in that story.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
If we believe in evolution then we must also believe that religion is an evolved advantage to our ancestors because it has formed over and over in all great civilizations past. It must have played and likely still plays some important role in the ability for humans to work together, live happily, and to be something bigger than the individual.
I don’t think forced religion is good people should have freedom of choice to include atheism. I also think it should be considered that it has had its place in history and probably still fills an important role.
The backpedaling is hard there. You were literally saying « science hasn’t found a sense of meaning » before. Now it’s « not on the scale » of religion.
People don’t need either science nor religion to find a sense of meaning. It can be through family, friends, sport, traveling, charity, etc. I’d wager religion isn’t that big as a meaning giver that you think it is globally. A big part of why it helps people mentally has likely more to do with the sense of community provided by those groups than it is with the beliefs themselves in the first place. It’s the same as being in any social club. Mental health is mainly about our human interactions, not so much about out individual beliefs and such.
You seem to have a very narrow view about meaning. You seem to only accept a definition of meaning which portrays one objective truth.
Science doesn’t even claim that such universal meaning exists in the first place. It recognizes that meaning is a subjective feeling. A sense of meaning as you would say and what this comment thread was originally about.
Besides, it’s very debatable that religion provides such explanation about our existence either. It all comes down to « because god » which isn’t meaning in itself, just a injunction to have faith. Religion hasn’t « found » any more meaning than science. Meaning in religion is provided through faith.
Therapy (science) has helped many people directly find a sense of meaning in their lives on a large scale. But science has helped people find meaning in so many different ways. Science practicians such as doctors, engineers, teachers and so many other people find meaning because of it on a massive scale. People who don’t practice science also find meaning thanks to it because it enables them to live their passion, be creative, do good in the world, help others, etc. which are all actual meaning for people.
People find meaning. It is not « found by » science or religion. Your semantics on that actually doesn’t make sense. People find meaning in something that provides what they resonate with. They can find meaning in religion, family, career, etc. and often it is not just one thing. Religion can’t find meaning but can help provide some.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
That’s like complaining that architecture hasn’t provided a solution for world hunger. That’s not its purpose.
We have lots of religions, some that we’re expected to abandon as adults, some we’re expected to carry forward as adults.
Why? Because they make things easier for you (other) people.
Santa Claus: Won’t give you presents if you don’t go to bed X-mas eve!
(Now get outa my hair kid so I can do a bunch of work to make you happy tomorrow morning.)
The Easter Bunny: This bunny poops colorful, cooked, eggs all over the yard and it’s ok for you to eat them in sandwiches for the next week. Ok so he doesn’t poop them, he only hides them after you cook them. Somehow…
Everyone gets a valentine: There’s someone who loves you everywhere, and we should share our love with everyone.
Life is Fair: Things should be fair, and when you get something you should share it with your sister, or your classmates. Not enough for everyone? None for you!
Fighting is bad: Anyone who gets in a fight gets in trouble, whether you started it or not!
We tell these lies because we want to control the experience and the environment of children, we want to protect them from the lies all those things are meant to keep them from seeing.
Santa Claus Ain’t Real, you’re prolly gonna be broke in an apartment alone eating premade food on a Christmas eve one year… and that’ll be a blessing, cause you could afford something to eat.
The easter bunny was the least adult, adult’s responsibility and one year the eggs stop coming.
Everyone doesn’t get a valentine, and sometimes that kid goes home and gets beat up or hurts themselves – that’s why they’re “too weird” for anyone to be their friend.
Life isn’t fair, people don’t get the same things and some people starve.
Fighting is sometimes not bad at all, and some people make a living doing it. We just want to be able to bet on our fights and make a premium selling the broadcast rights.
As we get older, we’re only supposed to keep the more “adult” religions, like being subservient to our betters, elders, priests, lawmakers etc. They tell you to “be honest (in business.)”. “Don’t murder others (unless I tell you to)”. “Follow the laws of the place you’re in.” and “Don’t cheat on your wife (and get caught).”
We’ve got a few others in there, but those are pretty much the ones you’re “expected” to follow.
Your reward? You get to think about the ending of a fictional book you haven’t actually read a whole lot as though it were real, and you’re one of the characters. It’s amazingly pacifying if you’re trying to keep millions of people from stealing, killing each other, and sleeping around.
I won’t argue that religion hasn’t been usurped throughout history in the name of control. I can mostly only speak with any confidence on Christianity. The Bible regardless how holy and true we are told it is has no doubt been tainted by men throughout history.
There’s still plenty of good in religion despite that. And I don’t think it’s wrong to believe there’s more than what we see. What life looks like after death is a mystery. Science points to your body shuts down. Fact. But we can’t say with any certainty that’s it.
From my experience a healthy church encourages my skepticism. It’ll encourage asking tough questions. It helps me to explore what I believe. The reward when doing that exploration seems to vary from one to another. Myself I became more resilient to the day to day troubles around me that were too big. Me yelling in the void of social media doesn’t change much about issues like global warming or people in need. I can reduce my consumption I can repair instead of replace. I can volunteer my time to help kids who’s parents can’t take care of them. The universe as a whole will be a little better for it
Not all need religion, I accept that, some people have all they need to get by and will cruise from now to the grave. But to some of us it is a major force for happiness and healthiness.
There are many things that provide comfort for people. Drug/Alcohol use, literature etc. Fandoms are just… weird, and religion is the oldest and most mature category of fandoms.
The Bible “has been tainted by men” because it’s a construct and story written by men, it’s always been that.
We don’t worship George Lucas today, but maybe in a thousand years we’ll worship Geo Luca and the virgin birth of Anak SkyBoots.
If you think I’m being reductive or insulting, it’s not meant to be. I grew up taking communion, and agonizing over every masturbation. The story isn’t the problem, it’s the rules to be part of the Fandom.
Not insulted at all. Grew up in Church of Christ and I can tell you that church did not match me. There’s a lot to what didn’t match me but let’s go with the overall close mindedness of it was a problem for a curious mind.
As soon as I was old enough not to go, I didn’t. Atheism for the next two decades until I found something was missing. Explored other churches and found a non-denominational that matches my views as well as doesn’t judge me as a heretic for questioning.
I think it’s unfortunate many of us grow up going to a specific brand of church. What worked for our parents in their situation may not line up either with our personality or the world we live in today.
depression is less prevalent likely due to the sense of meaning and purpose attendees have
You don’t care that they’re deluded?
Science doesn’t teach a person how to be okay with their purpose in life, in fact some of the answers science finds may push people further from purpose.
Reality can be hard. It doesn’t make it less real, nor the search for gods less futile.
Having a reason to live, a reason to do the right thing is a good thing. Religion done right accepts that the world is tough, they accept each other for their mistakes, teach one another how to get through life without anger and they forgive. It’s something very hard to get in day to day America. Until someone comes up with a better way to do this religion will still have a place.
But ultimately belief in a God isn’t deluded, intelligent design is still a real possibility.
No such thing. Any ideology based and unprovable and unverified claims is a mistake by definition.
Given that religion is the root of past major civilizations which we are built on I’d say we wouldn’t have science without it. Hardly a mistake in my opinion. We might still be beating each other in the head with rocks without religion.
This doesn’t disprove intelligent design. People still argue we are a simulation within science. That’s a form of intelligent design. As is sending a spacecraft that terraforms the beginning of the world and steers throughout history. There are plenty of ways in which a god could have formed us.
No such thing. Any ideology based and unprovable and unverified claims is a mistake by definition.
Given that religion is the root of past major civilizations which we are built on I’d say we wouldn’t have science without it.
We wouldn’t have science without oxygen either, and that doesn’t mean that science owes its existence to oxygen. The post-hoc fallacy runs rampant in your assertion.
Hardly a mistake in my opinion.
Is religion based in unverified and unverified claims? Yes. That’s by definition a mistake. I don’t care about how useful or convenient it is or it was in the past; I only care about whether is true or not, and if we’re justified in accepting it based on that. Accepting untruths for convenience is always a mistake.
We might still be beating each other in the head with rocks without religion.
That nonsense would be hilarious if it wasn’t tragic.
I’m tempted to go and find a Unitarian or Secular church because of this. I believe singing in a choir is one of the most calming activities I’ve ever had in my life.
I go to church but don’t fully buy into church and I don’t think you have to. For instance when they talk about god, I replace with universe. science hasn’t disproven it.
Jesus. Maybe son of god or maybe just someone with really good morals and wanted us to love each other. Either way someone we should hold up and adore.
I was defined atheist at one point in my life. Now I’m somewhere in the middle. Churches and religion offers a lot of good things. Community being my favorite. Americans don’t find many reasons to get together but church is like heyo it’s potluck time every other week. Delicious food and good people.
Nonsense. Belief in a god is a binary proposition.
Life isn’t black and white. Neither is religion, at least not a religion I’d follow. Those who make it black and white are we have hatred and division.
The assertion “I believe in God” is true or false. It cannot be anything else.
Right but what is God? There’s a myriad of different answers to that and most religions a God is not a being as much an idea or force.
This is where it not being black and white comes into play. Answering that question with True of False means you believe my god is what you believe God to be. That’s likely not the case.
Choose one god. Tell me if you believe in it or not. The answer is binary.
And your answer is a cop-out. God with a capital G, the god called God, is understood to be the Judeochristian deity. But whatever, you’re obviously not discussing in good faith so let’s end it here.
Not a cop out it’s just not black and white. You seem to really be struggling with the fact someone could be in a state between believing in God and not.
You’d be surprised how many Christians will tell you they struggle with believing from time to time. The ones who will admit it at least. Many do and to many God is different from one to the next.
Didn’t say it was the only thing that provided meaning but you’ll find in a church depression is less prevalent likely due to the sense of meaning and purpose attendees have.
That sense of meaning is something all attendees can achieve because they are taught to. Science doesn’t teach a person how to be okay with their purpose in life, in fact some of the answers science finds may push people further from purpose.
I have found plenty of purpose in my life without religion.
But you know this is the only life you got, right? Your life is finite and coming to an end. Well, for the ones with faith, life never ends. You might have found purpose but many many others won’t be able to. Just like me, an atheist, struggling to deal with the thought of NOTHINGNESS once this is over.
What helps me is considering that I won’t be around to contemplate that nothing. Sure, I dislike that my continuity of experience will eventually end, but, in the ending, there won’t be a me to care anymore.
What helps you would make some people very depressed. It’s great that you don’t need it and can provide your own path through life and death but many others need help.
That’s not a justification for believing otherwise pernicious falsehoods. It’s only an explanation.
You’ll find very low rates of depression in amusement park jobs. Yet, they dont teach them about purpose of life there, are they?
Your logic is awful. You’re making the most ridiculous conclusions.
There’s actual scientific evidence of it helping with depression and lower rates of mental health problems. If you google it you will find not one but many dozen articles discussing links between religion and improved mental health.
Not everyone who needs can work at an amusement park but anyone can find a religion to suit them even in the US.
Nobody said it can’t help. But you’re making a bigger deal of it than it is. The effect is rather small. If you compare it to benefits from science such as having running water, heating, access to medication, etc. It’s not even on the same level.
Besides, not everyone’s mental health is helped by religion. As the studies shows, it’s only a portion of them. And a lot of people are miserable when religion is forced upon them.
Besides, weather or not religion helps with depression has absolutely nothing to do with science not being able to provide a sense of meaning. You’re simply arguing in bad faith here.
If average mental state is the measurement, then we get to include both the positive and the negative effects of religious mentality. Like Jim Jones, and the neverending stream of “posessions” that stem from complete mental conflicts and disconnections from reality – encouraging people’s mental illnesses.
Churches, hiding and covering up relgious negative experiences, cult worship as offshoots, death cults etc.
We pretend like the salem witch hunts were last eon or something, tell people “there are witches, they exist, satan compelled them to do things and they can make you do things.”
All of a sudden a whole village was being “tempted” by satan, and it was all these witches fault.
Just gotta come up with a story as to how “it’s not your fault” and people will fall over themselves to figure out how they fit in that story.
Science has and will continue to provide a lot of things that improve our lives. I only argue it has failed to deliver a sense of meaning on the scale of religion thus far.
If we believe in evolution then we must also believe that religion is an evolved advantage to our ancestors because it has formed over and over in all great civilizations past. It must have played and likely still plays some important role in the ability for humans to work together, live happily, and to be something bigger than the individual.
I don’t think forced religion is good people should have freedom of choice to include atheism. I also think it should be considered that it has had its place in history and probably still fills an important role.
The backpedaling is hard there. You were literally saying « science hasn’t found a sense of meaning » before. Now it’s « not on the scale » of religion.
People don’t need either science nor religion to find a sense of meaning. It can be through family, friends, sport, traveling, charity, etc. I’d wager religion isn’t that big as a meaning giver that you think it is globally. A big part of why it helps people mentally has likely more to do with the sense of community provided by those groups than it is with the beliefs themselves in the first place. It’s the same as being in any social club. Mental health is mainly about our human interactions, not so much about out individual beliefs and such.
Science has not found meaning. I cannot point to any scientific discovery that tells why we exist or what our purpose is.
It does provide meaning to some on a small scale who devote themselves to science.
Both statements can be true. Science can provide meaning on a small scale without ever finding it.
You seem to have a very narrow view about meaning. You seem to only accept a definition of meaning which portrays one objective truth.
Science doesn’t even claim that such universal meaning exists in the first place. It recognizes that meaning is a subjective feeling. A sense of meaning as you would say and what this comment thread was originally about.
Besides, it’s very debatable that religion provides such explanation about our existence either. It all comes down to « because god » which isn’t meaning in itself, just a injunction to have faith. Religion hasn’t « found » any more meaning than science. Meaning in religion is provided through faith.
Therapy (science) has helped many people directly find a sense of meaning in their lives on a large scale. But science has helped people find meaning in so many different ways. Science practicians such as doctors, engineers, teachers and so many other people find meaning because of it on a massive scale. People who don’t practice science also find meaning thanks to it because it enables them to live their passion, be creative, do good in the world, help others, etc. which are all actual meaning for people.
People find meaning. It is not « found by » science or religion. Your semantics on that actually doesn’t make sense. People find meaning in something that provides what they resonate with. They can find meaning in religion, family, career, etc. and often it is not just one thing. Religion can’t find meaning but can help provide some.
Your whole conception of meaning is flawed.
That’s like complaining that architecture hasn’t provided a solution for world hunger. That’s not its purpose.
We have lots of religions, some that we’re expected to abandon as adults, some we’re expected to carry forward as adults.
Why? Because they make things easier for you (other) people.
Santa Claus: Won’t give you presents if you don’t go to bed X-mas eve!
(Now get outa my hair kid so I can do a bunch of work to make you happy tomorrow morning.)
The Easter Bunny: This bunny poops colorful, cooked, eggs all over the yard and it’s ok for you to eat them in sandwiches for the next week. Ok so he doesn’t poop them, he only hides them after you cook them. Somehow…
Everyone gets a valentine: There’s someone who loves you everywhere, and we should share our love with everyone.
Life is Fair: Things should be fair, and when you get something you should share it with your sister, or your classmates. Not enough for everyone? None for you!
Fighting is bad: Anyone who gets in a fight gets in trouble, whether you started it or not!
We tell these lies because we want to control the experience and the environment of children, we want to protect them from the lies all those things are meant to keep them from seeing.
Santa Claus Ain’t Real, you’re prolly gonna be broke in an apartment alone eating premade food on a Christmas eve one year… and that’ll be a blessing, cause you could afford something to eat.
The easter bunny was the least adult, adult’s responsibility and one year the eggs stop coming.
Everyone doesn’t get a valentine, and sometimes that kid goes home and gets beat up or hurts themselves – that’s why they’re “too weird” for anyone to be their friend.
Life isn’t fair, people don’t get the same things and some people starve.
Fighting is sometimes not bad at all, and some people make a living doing it. We just want to be able to bet on our fights and make a premium selling the broadcast rights.
As we get older, we’re only supposed to keep the more “adult” religions, like being subservient to our betters, elders, priests, lawmakers etc. They tell you to “be honest (in business.)”. “Don’t murder others (unless I tell you to)”. “Follow the laws of the place you’re in.” and “Don’t cheat on your wife (and get caught).”
We’ve got a few others in there, but those are pretty much the ones you’re “expected” to follow.
Your reward? You get to think about the ending of a fictional book you haven’t actually read a whole lot as though it were real, and you’re one of the characters. It’s amazingly pacifying if you’re trying to keep millions of people from stealing, killing each other, and sleeping around.
I won’t argue that religion hasn’t been usurped throughout history in the name of control. I can mostly only speak with any confidence on Christianity. The Bible regardless how holy and true we are told it is has no doubt been tainted by men throughout history.
There’s still plenty of good in religion despite that. And I don’t think it’s wrong to believe there’s more than what we see. What life looks like after death is a mystery. Science points to your body shuts down. Fact. But we can’t say with any certainty that’s it.
From my experience a healthy church encourages my skepticism. It’ll encourage asking tough questions. It helps me to explore what I believe. The reward when doing that exploration seems to vary from one to another. Myself I became more resilient to the day to day troubles around me that were too big. Me yelling in the void of social media doesn’t change much about issues like global warming or people in need. I can reduce my consumption I can repair instead of replace. I can volunteer my time to help kids who’s parents can’t take care of them. The universe as a whole will be a little better for it
Not all need religion, I accept that, some people have all they need to get by and will cruise from now to the grave. But to some of us it is a major force for happiness and healthiness.
There are many things that provide comfort for people. Drug/Alcohol use, literature etc. Fandoms are just… weird, and religion is the oldest and most mature category of fandoms.
The Bible “has been tainted by men” because it’s a construct and story written by men, it’s always been that.
We don’t worship George Lucas today, but maybe in a thousand years we’ll worship Geo Luca and the virgin birth of Anak SkyBoots.
If you think I’m being reductive or insulting, it’s not meant to be. I grew up taking communion, and agonizing over every masturbation. The story isn’t the problem, it’s the rules to be part of the Fandom.
Not insulted at all. Grew up in Church of Christ and I can tell you that church did not match me. There’s a lot to what didn’t match me but let’s go with the overall close mindedness of it was a problem for a curious mind.
As soon as I was old enough not to go, I didn’t. Atheism for the next two decades until I found something was missing. Explored other churches and found a non-denominational that matches my views as well as doesn’t judge me as a heretic for questioning.
I think it’s unfortunate many of us grow up going to a specific brand of church. What worked for our parents in their situation may not line up either with our personality or the world we live in today.
You don’t care that they’re deluded?
Reality can be hard. It doesn’t make it less real, nor the search for gods less futile.
Having a reason to live, a reason to do the right thing is a good thing. Religion done right accepts that the world is tough, they accept each other for their mistakes, teach one another how to get through life without anger and they forgive. It’s something very hard to get in day to day America. Until someone comes up with a better way to do this religion will still have a place.
But ultimately belief in a God isn’t deluded, intelligent design is still a real possibility.
No such thing. Any ideology based and unprovable and unverified claims is a mistake by definition.
You’re mistaken on both counts, I’m afraid. Please see http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI001.html and subsequent pages.
Given that religion is the root of past major civilizations which we are built on I’d say we wouldn’t have science without it. Hardly a mistake in my opinion. We might still be beating each other in the head with rocks without religion.
This doesn’t disprove intelligent design. People still argue we are a simulation within science. That’s a form of intelligent design. As is sending a spacecraft that terraforms the beginning of the world and steers throughout history. There are plenty of ways in which a god could have formed us.
We wouldn’t have science without oxygen either, and that doesn’t mean that science owes its existence to oxygen. The post-hoc fallacy runs rampant in your assertion.
Is religion based in unverified and unverified claims? Yes. That’s by definition a mistake. I don’t care about how useful or convenient it is or it was in the past; I only care about whether is true or not, and if we’re justified in accepting it based on that. Accepting untruths for convenience is always a mistake.
That nonsense would be hilarious if it wasn’t tragic.
I challenge you to find two people that agree on what that looks like
I know this is anecdotal, but for a lot of people, church actually increases depression.
I’m tempted to go and find a Unitarian or Secular church because of this. I believe singing in a choir is one of the most calming activities I’ve ever had in my life.
I go to church but don’t fully buy into church and I don’t think you have to. For instance when they talk about god, I replace with universe. science hasn’t disproven it.
Jesus. Maybe son of god or maybe just someone with really good morals and wanted us to love each other. Either way someone we should hold up and adore.
I was defined atheist at one point in my life. Now I’m somewhere in the middle. Churches and religion offers a lot of good things. Community being my favorite. Americans don’t find many reasons to get together but church is like heyo it’s potluck time every other week. Delicious food and good people.
Adoration is intrinsically disgusting.
Nonsense. Belief in a god is a binary proposition.
Life isn’t black and white. Neither is religion, at least not a religion I’d follow. Those who make it black and white are we have hatred and division.
Nobody said anything about “life”. Nice strawman you have there.
The more important question is why any rational being would want to follow a religion, but I digress.
I’m answering specifically to this assertion you made:
The assertion “I believe in God” is true or false. It cannot be anything else.
Right but what is God? There’s a myriad of different answers to that and most religions a God is not a being as much an idea or force.
This is where it not being black and white comes into play. Answering that question with True of False means you believe my god is what you believe God to be. That’s likely not the case.
Choose one god. Tell me if you believe in it or not. The answer is binary.
And your answer is a cop-out. God with a capital G, the god called God, is understood to be the Judeochristian deity. But whatever, you’re obviously not discussing in good faith so let’s end it here.
Not a cop out it’s just not black and white. You seem to really be struggling with the fact someone could be in a state between believing in God and not.
You’d be surprised how many Christians will tell you they struggle with believing from time to time. The ones who will admit it at least. Many do and to many God is different from one to the next.
So, do you believe in half a god then?