cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/2313987
I have noticed that alot of people think the majority of people are stupid based on the things they read online or maybe even experience in real life but I think that there is better explanation than just assuming people are stupid.
A common example people bring up to show that other people are stupid is mentioning how a lot of people believe in conspiracy theories ( such as Qanon or Flat earth) and point out how they are objectively false therefore the people that believe it are stupid.
However when you examine these beliefs in more depth there is obviously some amount of internal logic that is used to justify these beliefs to themselves and others in the group.
You can go to flat earthers forum and they can give huge amounts of “evidence” about how light shouldn’t be visible after 50 kms if the earth was round or how in Qanon there are probably people who have whole boards detailed with connections between how and where democrats participate in satanic rituals but my point is that all conspiracy theories tend to form one cohesive narrative like a collective story that are building.
To be able to make a story that is this detailed it definitely required some amount of forethought and reasoning to make it so everyone in the group reaches the same collective understanding.
This then might lead you to ask why are people susceptible to these ideas and what makes them stick. Well I think that it boils down to three different things.
- Our collective feeling that things aren’t going well
- Our general distrust in current authorities
- Our collective belief that an authority is good/necessary
When you look at how people tend to be influenced into accepting these beliefs it also follows this same general pattern.
- People feel that some part of their life isn’t going well and that current institutions aren’t helping them anymore.
- A guru/influencer shows up and offers advice (sometimes good advice) to fix their problem
- People then start trusting these gurus/influencers and seeing them as authorities
- Finally these people take what these gurus/influencers say at face value and build internal lore for their community that makes sense to them given that they accept what the new authority says as fact.
If you want to tackle the root of what makes people susceptible to these ideas you have to tackle those three things or else people will fall into those same traps just with different authorities saying different things.
Also as a semi-related point there are a million and one things that an individual can choose to focus on and become knowledgable about so whilst some people spend that mental capacity on understanding tech or politics others spend that mental capacity on flat earth theory or UFOs.
Main point:
So all of this is to say I think that people aren’t stupid and that we should not treat them as they are such instead if we understand that they are capable of complex reason but they are starting with different base knowledge it’ll be easier to empathize with others. Also if we want society to be less susceptible to this we need to fix one or all of the three things I mentioned that makes us susceptible.
Mmmm, nah, I think that sometimes, people are stupid.
No people are pretty stupid. The problem is that humans are not thinking creatures. We by in large are feeling creatures that sometimes think. Often the thinking part is used to justify how we feel, not the other way around. This is why emotive arguments are more important then fact.
The other huge issue is attention span. We are all very busy. The sheer effort to understand an issue is beyond most of us most of the time. We all have to farm that out most if the time.
Humans have huge blind spots. So yes we are all pretty stupid.
The attention span links to another one: people try not to look stupid. So when put on the spot, they come up with explanations that, since they had no time to think them through, are even more stupid.
And there there are different goals and models of reality too. Some of them not very nice. So different mindsets leads to different things seeming sensible or stupid.
I have noticed that alot of people think the majority of people are stupid
Not a good start alot…
Now I have to picture Alot of People, an alot made out of body parts. Thx for the nightmares
I think you may have disapproved your own point.
To rephrase your second list:
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People are unhappy with the lives they have built themselves and the world we have collectively built together.
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A conman shows up and tells them it’s not their own fault, it’s others, and the leaders that were chosen.
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They believe the conman, because he blames others they don’t like, and make them feel good about themselves.
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They make up shit to help square that with reality, and wall themselves off from other people or sources that could shatter that.
I don’t think that shows them to be smart. Don’t think it would make them not stupid either.
I agree with the well-written other commenter who argues it makes them irrational, and with another comment that argues they are following emotions rather than logic.
But for sure I’m sick of being told to placate and empathize with the irrational deplorables yet again.
Never see an argument that the irrational or uninformed should try to empathize with the rational at any point.
But for sure I’m sick of being told to placate and empathize with the irrational deplorables yet again.
I think I gave my thoughts on this more in this comment.
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People are stupid. Source: I’m stupid.
Some people try to learn be better about things. Source: I’m learning and trying to be better about things.
The 3 things to fix:
- Our collective feeling that things aren’t going well
- Our general distrust in current authorities
- Our collective belief that an authority is good/necessary
…
Also if we want society to be less susceptible to this we need to fix one or all of the three things
Ok, so:
- Fix things that aren’t going well (or make people feel things are going well).
- Have authorities we can trust (or make people trust our current authorities).
- Reject authority (or make people believe that needing authority is a good thing).
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
It all seems really wishy-washy.But I agree that people aren’t stupid.
I mean, on average, at least half the people are stupid. By whatever metric that is.
Chances are - however - they are irrational.
Despite all the evidence, they still want something to be true.Irrational:
If you describe someone’s feelings and behavior as irrational, you mean they are not based on logical reasons or clear thinking
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/irrational
99% of conspiracy theorys are irrational.
By the time you know about a conspiracy theory, it is probably being tested and will likely be disproven. Or it has already been tested and proven to be wrong. Otherwise the conspiracy/theory would be a working scientific theory.
Believing otherwise makes you irrational.Look at LK99. Huge deal, claimed proof, seemed legit. Within 2 months it was disproven to the satisfaction of the scientific community.
Now there will be stories about LK99 being legit, and the “scientific community” (read government) rejecting it because UFOs are going through US court whatevers. And LK99 came from extraterrestrial origins, or whatever.
This is irrational (edit: as pointed out in a comment, this is actually rational. It follows logic. But it is based on an irrational premise: that aliens exist).Or … scientists made a mistake.
This is rational.( Never mind the extremely infinitesimally small chance that extraterrestrial sentient life exists and coincides with our time, travelled across the universe and failed to survive an encounter with our planet (or that they successfully contacted only the government via means they were able to keep quiet, who then successfully kept that a secret). )
Rationality is different from stupid.
You can be stupid and rational.
You can be intelligent and irrational.Now there will be stories about LK99 being legit, and the “scientific community” (read government) rejecting it because UFOs are going through US court whatevers. And LK99 came from extraterrestrial origins, or whatever. This is irrational.
Or … scientists made a mistake. This is rational.
I think both are rational (consistent with or based on reason) it is just that one of them is using the right premises.
Ok, so:
- Fix things that aren’t going well (or make people feel things are going well).
- Have authorities we can trust (or make people trust our current authorities).
- Reject authority (or make people believe that needing authority is a good thing).
The solutions I’d suggest would be
- Exactly the same as yours
- Teach people to be selective with the sources they trust and base it off of reasons why someone should and shouldn’t trust a source in specific situtations.
I think both are rational (consistent with or based on reason) it is just that one of them is using the right premises.
Man, I had a whole thing typed out when I re-read what you wrote.
I’m assuming you mean “aliens are real” is the false premise here…
Because I’m glad I re-read. I had massively mis-interpreted your comment!2… [Snip]
The way to teach this is critical thinking of “follow the money, follow the power”.
And it’s pretty murky.
I’m fairly certain “ban plastic straws” got so much traction because it diverted from actual issues.
Fishing nets cause more issues and pollution. People now hate pasta straws, and blame it on environmentalists.
Oil companies divert attention for another 5-10 years.Maybe I’m just cynical.
I’m fairly certain “ban plastic straws” got so much traction because it diverted from actual issues.
This is a tactic first used (and probably popularized) by the CCP to drown out dissent. It is called the 50 cent party.
They shift the focus off of specific events like uprisings and riots to things that are more palatable like parades and philosophical discussions.
And what makes it worse is that the more people know about it the more effective it is because it just makes the public distrust others more and default to whatever the social norm is which is CCP control.
I bet that other countries and corporations do the same thing and use the idea of bots to sow distrust in the general public.
Edit: The false premise would be that intelligent alien life is on earth and the government has been able to hide it this well. I bet that it is likely that somewhere in the cosmos there is at least a proto-proto bacteria floating in a shallow pond minding its own business.
Yeah they are… and you’re one of them. Have fun on block.
I disagree.
Our intelligence was not evolved for too much thinking. Most of our brain is wired towards feeling, and for the overwhelming majority of human existence, our feelings were well suited for small, cooperative, communal existence as small tribes/bands/clans. We don’t “think” for most of the decisions we make in our day to day lives, nor do we try to learn from all the possible sources.
IMO religion is “needed” in order to shortcut our feeling brain to help make us make the correct collectivist decision. It’s like writing software on shitty firmware and limited hardware so that it can still function in modern society.
I wonder where we disagree?
I agree with you and to add on here is a youtube video about that exact same topic:
Edit: added name of video
I should be more precise.
I think we will still have charlatans even if we solve all societal problems because people are fundamentally not built to reason, and they will always be vulnerable to those who prey on the ignorant for power.
Thus, we need to build society as if people are stupid to prevent the worst abuses of power.
I still agree with you and I made a post on another account about a very similar thing.
That talk was quite nice, I really enjoyed it, thank you
No problem.
Everyone has the capacity to behave in a less stupid way, but not everyone has the ability to be aware of and change their behavior or the desire to if they have that ability. That’s given anyone really has a grasp of the optimal epistemological system, which I’m not sure has been established yet. It’s frustrating to see someone who is clearly very intelligent blow their abilities on a highly unlikely and completely baseless hypothesis which could be possible if all their invented variables turn out to be true, but that’s the way many people prefer to live. For myself, I haven’t always been aware of my stupid behaviors and there are probably things I’m doing now which are stupid because my biases have obscured things for me which are clear to others. Many people just assume nothing they do is stupid because if they did it it couldn’t have been stupid no matter what, and if things don’t go their way it must have been a secret conspiracy which foiled them because they couldn’t have been wrong. There’s a lot more going on with stupidity that just “innate intelligence” if that even exists.
Try working customer support and not coming to the conclusion that people are stupid…
Granted, the smart ones probably will never end up on my phone lines.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
I think that people (as in a group of people) can be both really dumb (groupthink) or really smart (collective wisdom) it just depends on how they are networked with each other.
I linked this post in another comment but it is also relevant to this.
I understand what you say and agree, however there is a point to be made about what the definition of stupid should be. Due to proximity, I will take myself as an example. I’m incredibly absent minded and pay little attention because I have too much on my mind and too little rest to deal with it all, so I focus on what I can while the rest often gets neglected. Many people then view my behavior as stupidity and I do not care about their opinions enough to correct their perception. Although even if I did it might not change anything. So go ahead and think what you will of me, unless they have anything helpful to say I won’t pay attention. I’m that kinda stupid.
Hanlons razor sucks and its no wonder everyone that’s operated it have caused harm to the people it was supposed to protect. Conspiracy theories have so much in common with witch hunts and lynch mobs than people with goofy beliefs. Theyre groups brought together by malice and only deserve the highest amount of scorn society can give them. They’re not stupid and theyre sure as hell not victims or worthy of empathy in any way
