Does Ukraine really have a neo-Nazi problem? US officials won't say
forward.com
Some Jewish leaders and U.S. officials have pulled back their criticism of the Azov Brigade since Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
      • imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee
        341·
        1 year ago

        Having a rat problem doesn’t mean a house is run by rats, and it certainly doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want to stop the humans inside from being gassed

          • imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee
            426·
            1 year ago

            So wait in your view should there just be no intervention and russia takes Ukraine? Y’all are answering in such short glib answers like I should know your views and I’m an idiot. I see that I clearly don’t see…

            You’re not really pro Russia here’s are you? I mean sure it was red scare and such but it’s definitely a far right govt no question about that.

            Edit: look I can see how this just looks like sealioning ir whatever but I’m trying to understand your actual viewpoint, and the other truths that i haven’t been aware of

            • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
              331·
              1 year ago

              An intervention was absolutely necessary…Russia’s intervention in Ukraine that is, to prevent the genocide that the Kiev Nazi regime planned to carry out in Donbass. Whether or not Russia ends up taking all of Ukraine is up to Ukraine, or rather its western puppetmasters. The more they refuse to see reason the worse the outcome will be for them.

              Case in point: if there had never been the coup in 2014 Ukraine would still have Crimea. If Ukraine had abided by the Minsk agreements they would have lost Crimea but still have the Donbass. If they had not pulled out of the Istanbul negotiations last year they would have lost the Donbass but still have everything else.

              Every time they try to screw Russia over they dig the hole deeper for themselves. So yes, if they keep escalating and refusing to negotiate then Russia will have to keep taking more and more of Ukraine to ensure its security. The longer the range of the weapons that the West gives the Kiev regime the further Russia will have to push the border. Actions have consequences.

              The nature of Russia’s government is wholly irrelevant to all of this. Any government that looks out for Russia’s vital national interests and security would be compelled to do the same. We’re not pro-Russia, we’re anti-fascist and anti-imperialist. In fact we are more pro-Ukraine than those who cheerlead them and egg them on to keep commiting national suicide.

              Now if the West truly cared about Ukraine they would stop sending weapons, which only lead to more Ukrainians dying and more of Ukraine being destroyed, and start pressuring them to negotiate immediately.

              Of course everyone understands that this is not about Ukraine, they are just the hapless proxy, hence the West will continue to push Ukraine further toward its own destruction… It’s tragic but that’s how it is.

              There. Was that enough explanation for you or was that too short and glib as well?

              • imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee
                319·
                1 year ago

                I think that most of that is entirely fair.

                yes, if they keep escalating and refusing to negotiate then Russia will have to keep taking more and more of Ukraine to ensure its security.

                I mean this doesn’t sound like anything other than shut up and do what Russia says or keep getting the stick because:

                The nature of Russia’s government is wholly irrelevant to all of this. Any government that looks out for Russia’s vital national interests and security would be compelled to do the same.

                Okay but shouldn’t the same logic follow for Ukraine?

                In fact we are more pro-Ukraine than those who cheerlead them and egg them on to keep commiting national suicide.

                This is about as sincere as and the same logic as Republicans that want to make abortions illegal because “black people get more abortions then white people, do you really support eugenics?”.

                You’re assuming that Ukraine doesn’t benefit from and won’t end the war on their terms, which with it obviously being a proxy war, i find it hard to believe that Russia will ‘win’

                I sincerely appreciate you sharing the general beliefs, I just can’t make that last leap in logic that you are suggesting for the above reasons.

                • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
                  21·
                  1 year ago

                  “shouldn’t the same logic follow for Ukraine?”

                  It should but due to the fact that its current government is a puppet government controlled by the West (not to mention full of fanatical ideologues who, to put it mildly, are not on good terms with reality), it does not act in the best interests of Ukraine. The national interest of Ukraine lies in having good relations with Russia. Pre-2014 Ukraine was attempting to balance between Russia and the West, which was a pretty lucrative arrangement for them. They were getting to play the role of a bridge between two very important economies, trading with both and collecting all kinds of transit fees such as on gas.

                  Unfortunately the US and EU were not satisfied with that and they overthrew that government and installed a fanatically russophobic regime into power that proceeded to destroy Ukraine’s economic viability by irrationally cutting ties with Russia despite the fact that the Ukrainian manufacturing economy had been designed since Soviet times to be intertwined with that of Russia. Then they proceeded to launch a brutal eight year war on their own people simply because those people demanded autonomy and protection from the discriminatory laws that the new - illegitimate - government was passing. None of this benefited Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.

                  But this is what happens when a country loses its sovereignty, and worse, lets the lunatics take over the asylum. We can argue all day about whether this is fair but the reality is, a country like Ukraine has to take into account the interests of its larger and more powerful neighbor. It is highly unwise to provoke and poke at someone stronger than you until they snap. It is also a fact that Ukraine would be better off if they stopped fighting. It may be hard to swallow for the nationalists but they could start to recover economically and more importantly people would stop dying. Ukraine may dream of ending the war on their terms but that is not happening. There is no indication that that is even remotely possible. At some point you have to cut your losses.

          • imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee
            217·
            1 year ago

            So wait in your view should there just be no intervention and russia takes Ukraine? Y’all are answering in such short glib answers like I should know your views and I’m an idiot. I see that I clearly don’t see…

            You’re not really pro Russia here’s are you? I mean sure it was red scare and such but it’s definitely a far right govt no question about that.

            • Soselin@lemmygrad.ml
              23·
              1 year ago

              Russia should take the eastern regions that voted in one referendum to secede from Ukraine and in another referendum to join Russia, and which also voted repeatedly for political parties within Ukraine that sought to protect their cultural rights only to see those parties repeatedly banned by Kyiv and then saw shelling of their cities by the Ukrainian national guard and affiliated Nazi militias.

              What right does Ukraine have to impose its rule on the people in the east who don’t want to be part of Ukraine anymore?

              Why don’t you people respect the views of the people who live there in the east?

        • Buchenstr@lemmygrad.ml
          272·
          1 year ago

          Same talking point ugh, but do listen to this, the Russian plainly and explicitly state they do not wish to occupy Ukraine. It’s a complete myth peddled by the MSM as they hoped the Russians would fight an occupation war, even back in march the Russian government gave a peace deal to the Ukrainians, that they would hand over they’re currently occupied land (except Crimea since it voted to be a part of Russia). Does that sound like what a genocidal regime would do?

          But Ukraine rejected, spouting the idea to regime change Russia, to take back Crimea, and to punish and humiliate the Russians. How on earth do you expect the Russians to even remotely except this? especially when the Ukrainians completely lack the means to even fight Russia in their supposed land?

          This war wouldn’t even happen if the Americans never pushed Ukraine into hostilities with the Russians, and before you say the Ukrainians have the right to join NATO and the west, the Americans sanction and aim to destroy nations like Syria, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Iran, north Korea because of ‘human rights abuses’ who comes up with these, and don’t these nations have to the right to choose who they are and what they do? America has the biggest prison population, slave labour, and interment camps for migrants. Are these not human rights abuses? so why does America have the right to occupy, invade, and tell others what to do if they commit the same atrocities?

          • imPastaSyndrome@lemm.ee
            121·
            1 year ago

            Same talking point ugh, but do listen to this, the Russian plainly and explicitly state they do not wish to occupy Ukraine

            I mean, that’s… not proof of anything, given that governments can, will, and 100% of the time do lie if it’s at all to their advantage.

            Does that sound like what a genocidal regime would do?

            Are you really this gullible just to be contrarian?

            So you don’t answer anything I actually asked, and you’re just repeating the

            “Same talking point ugh”

            • Buchenstr@lemmygrad.ml
              161·
              1 year ago

              What question? what that weird analogy about rats? YOU wanted to hear from our perspective, there it is. Seriously what did you ask? Because all you spouted was complete MSM nonsense. Maybe create a list of questions to be answered next time?

              Anyways I am being gullible to not believe this complete propaganda spin that this is “genocide war” against the ukranians? No btw thats not being contrarian, I’ve shown you the reasons how this is not some weird genocide war but you just blocked it out, also I really am not sure why you even used this word in this context other to shut down a conversation you do not like, despite literally asking for it?

              Second you did not ask for proof, again you asked our perspective, if you wanted some proof or information. I can give you a link to a substack which details the SMO. That is if you actually want it at all.