I mean, I was able to figure out how MS-DOS worked as a child just be flailing on the keyboard and reading the errors. It was “easy” because now I know it while Macintoshes may as well have been alien technology. A “mouse”?, moving windows?, you have to find programs and click on them instead of just typing?
You’re just used to Windows annoyances and not used to Linux annoyances, that’s all.
For example:
Installing and updating a program on Windows is a horror show compared to using a package manager. It expects average users to find, download and run executable files from the Internet and conditions them to approve elevation for anything that asks.
If Windows breaks, how do you troubleshoot it? Maybe Google knows, maybe rebooting fixes it, if not then possibly re-installing the entire OS. It’s so bad that if you work with Windows clients you probably already have an image of a Windows install because troubleshooting is so much of a pain it’s easier to just completely re-image the machine.
Don’t even get me started on how often Microsoft changes the layout of administration tools and system menus or their tendency to change the name of various system components for no logical reason.
I don’t think Linux is for everyone, but only because most everyone already has years of Windows experience and forgets all of the frustration and learning.
If you used Linux for just as long as you’ve used Windows, then editing fstab would seem as trivial a task as pinning an item to the start bar taskbar, or launching a program starting an app from the system traynotification area system tray.
Yeah, ironic they chose dolphin to make that point since I literally just did it in dolphin ~a month ago and it has a checkbox to set up automount for you.
I don’t think I’ve seen OpenSUSE recommended for beginners.
The vast universe of distros is definitely a confusion & intimidation factor for a lot of people. But we are talking about people who do not choose or install their own OS in the first place.
It was the first distro that got me to really want to stay on it. It’s literally almost perfect. It figures that I would want to stay on a more nuanced distro than I am probably knowledgeable to use, but it’s been so stable since I installed it. :,)
I agree. It’s a part of the conversation I always have when I’m talking about Linux in person with someone. I find it both really fucking awesome, but also kind of a bad thing in the sense of “which distro would you recommend” turns into a thesis. x)
You’d have an argument… if OpenSUSE was “average”. While it’s somewhat popular, it’s not nearly representative of “average” linux.
I’ve never met a SUSE user publicly. I’ve met Debian and Arch users.
Just because you found one modern distro that doesn’t do something doesn’t mean that it’s a common problem. But even then, you’re coloring your argument quite silly here. The “average” user has no fucking clue what a NAS is, and wouldn’t care to “mount” anything as if they had a NAS for some reason they’d likely only ever use it the web GUI for anything they did.
The “average” is really dumb comparatively to most linux power users…
This specific issue you’ve contrived… wouldn’t ever come up for an “average” user.
Yeah, this one gets me, but you are exactly right with “years of experience”. Something goes wrong on my GFs MacBook or Windows PC and she just googles fixes, something goes wrong on her Steamdeck and she hands it to me “I don’t know how to get around the desktop mode”…GOOGLE IT, LEARN, YOU ARENT STUPID! sigh
I mean atleast in terms of the troubleshooting I’ve had to do it’s much easier on Windows. Sure it can be more finicky but if I have a problem 99% of the time I google it and find someone else having the same problem and worst case scenario atleast reinstalling Windows fixes the problem. When I gave Linux a try the amount of times I googled something and either found an out of date solution that didn’t work or was just told that that doesn’t work and you can’t do that was annoying enough that I gave up and went back to Windows. If Linux works for you that’s great but acting like the problems with Linux are just people not being used to it is wrong.
Linux has problems but he is not wrong that a lot of it is not being used to the OS. Finding solutions on the Internet is like a popularity context, of course there is much more of it for windows but even on Linux there is much more for big distros line Ubuntu than other smaller ones.
Now reinstalling windows is not a solution or a good argument, it is saying the problem cannot be fixed. When I used windows that was also my go to solution and very feel things I solved by googling, but I guess in part because I was not as tech savvy as I am now. But I tell you, when I started with Linux I could find solution for all problems that I have that had solutions, now a lot have changed so you do get that some things are outdated but it is just a matter of paying attention if the solution is old or new (side not rant, sites that do not put date on the articles are the worst).
Oh yeah, I naver had to reinstall a Linux machine, maybe I lucked out and didn’t royally fucked anything, but I could always solve problems with the OS without a reinstall. I guess because more easily you can find and know where things changed, like what config files you changed and you can always make a copy. The works case is like booting a live USB and rolling back the changes if the OS does not boot anymore.
I think it depends on what problems you’re talking about as well. A lot of the problems I faced with Linux was with programs not working or certain features not being supported. Where as with windows the problems tend to be more of bugs or weird behaviors from the os itself. Sure you can say reinstalling isn’t a good solution as it’s annoying to do but if it makes the problem go away it is a solution. Meanwhile on Linux if a program isn’t supported and isn’t popular enough to have people figure out how to make it work it just doesn’t work and there is no work around other than either trying to figure it out yourself or just using windows. Sure you can maybe argue that that’s an experience difference as if you had experience with getting programs to work the figure it out yourself part wouldn’t be hard but if anything I think that shows that it’s not just a different set of experience but also generally requires more experience to be proficient with Linux versus being proficient with Windows. Although that probably comes down more to what you consider as being proficient.
I only say that reinstalling is not solving a problem in the context of troubleshooting and finding a fix. But yes, is not a good solution because it is a pain. I did so much reinstalling in my windows years that one of the best things I did was to learn to create a separated partition to use for data because it make reinstalling so much easier (it was back in the days of winME and it was an event to do a reinstall, we would usually go to a friend’s house with the HD or the whole machine just to be able to backup everything).
About the software it is like I mentioned (maybe in other comment) with hardware compatibility. If it is a windows first software, usually Linux support is done in “best effort”, so always lags behind. This is specially true to closed source software as the community can’t even help. In any case, one sad reality is that programmers usually are terrible at building and packaging software for release, and that is not a Linux only problem. The famous dll hell on older windows were due to terrible packaging. That is why docker is so popular, so people don’t have to bother with packaging.
For FLOSS software what I usually see is in software not on the distro repos and it not being compatible with the distro because the devs don’t build for it. With closed source/binary-only what I see the most is broken dependencies because they build it wrong, targeting the OS libraries instead of bundling everything with the package.
I have like the exact opposite issue. I’ve used windows for most of my life but it’s so so much harder to actually fix issues in windows compared to Linux
And for me, the big reason for this is because windows is a black box, Linux is not. You are always able to dig however deep you’d like in Linux compared to windows. Now, that might not be relevant for a layperson directly, but what it does mean is that someone else can understand the system component intimately and help you.
Meanwhile on windows the amount of “run this command that we auto-post to every issue report that doesn’t work” I’ve seen is ridiculous, and it never solved the problem. And then I try to dig into how to actually solve it, and really struggle so much more.
Also, Microsoft just sucks as a company. Recently I’ve wanted to clone a windows installation to an external drive. Should work fine, right? I could easily get that to work for Linux, and any issue that popped up I could fix. So, tried to use clonezilla, didn’t work. Ok fine, let me reinstall. Turns out Microsoft dropped support for windows on an external drive. Well that’s garbage and dumb, as I’ve used this to my benefit in the past. But turns out, people say it still actually works, you just need to use a third party tool. Which doesn’t inspire confidence, but whatever
And it did work in the end, but it took me many many hours of extra work of trying to figure out what the problem was, giving up, then looking for more information on alternate solutions, then finally finding something that worked, albeit with more work on my part
But if it was a Linux installation I’d have been finished in an hour probably, because I expect that cloning a drive would work without much issue there
Installing programs through Windows is now (thankfully) more align with Linux.
winget install firefox > see two different forms, one from Windows Store (ew) and the one provided and hosted by Mozilla > winget install mozilla.firefox > program installs
When updating: winget upgrade shows available updates > winget upgrade --all updates all the listed programs
Not as good as Linux of course, but much better than the old method you stated. That point I will give to you, as it is still not simple for the average user. “Terminal? WTF is that?”
I generally don’t have any annoyances with Windows because it does the things I need it to. I don’t find a UAC popups as annoying, because it is supposed to help prevent people from messing their computer up. The same could be said for the average person on Linux running random commands they found online because the thing they were expecting their computer to do isn’t doing the thing.
Windows has never broken on me, so I do not have a good rebuttal for that. I can at least say that when Linux has been borked before on my own hardware, I essentially had to put the ISO back on the single USB I owned at the time just to reinstall the entire OS again, because again, I didn’t know anything about Linux at this time. While in Windows, if the computer doesn’t boot properly 3 times, it brings up the Windows Recovery menu that has in plain English what available options you have to get your install back in at least some working manner. Again, you must keep the average person in mind. You and I are not what I would consider average in this context.
Again, point to you for the changes to UI that Micro$oft introduce. Very, very, very stupid UI/UX redesign choices, and without an alternate avenue at that! (there are a few programs that try to replace some of the Windows UI to get it back to how it should be, but of course that can introduce entirely new issues…)
I’ve been knuckle dragging my way into Linux more and more for 15 years. That’s why I have such a strong opinion on what they could do better for the average people. UI/GUI is a must have to get people to even consider ditching Windows. That’s without even taking into consideration that most of the programs I run personally do not even have a Linux alternative, and Wine/Bottles/Lutris/Heroic can not remedy without loads of understanding what you’re supposed to change here and there for that specific program. That is a real nightmare in my view.
You are mostly correct that I am very much more used to the “plug and play and it just works” of Windows, but having to go and edit some config file somewhere on my computer, instead of it just being an option in the settings or in the file manager itself, is just insane to a person who just wants to set it and forget it, like I can do with Windows.
Obviously, my time with Windows is not the average either, so I can see your points. I love Linux, what it stands for, and how it is community driven. I want it to be better so I can finally delete Windows forever.
I do like winget (and chocolate), but the software repo doesn’t have everything and so people are still conditioned into going online and searching for executable file to run as admin.
I can’t count the amount of times that I’ve had to reinstall Windows because a user was tricked into downloading the wrong file and infected themselves (and the rest of the network).
I’d say that if you had a brand new person who needed to learn an OS then Windows and Linux are very close in difficulty as of today. I prefer to use Linux because I like the amount of information and control that is afforded to me
But, I play video games, use VR and deal with applications that only support Windows so I have a Windows drive handy.
Sure, mapping a (Samba) network drive is easy, and possible via GUI, in Windows, but have you tried to use NFS?
You need a Professional license ($100) first of all, and even then, you can only use NFSv3. The Powershell command cmdlet to mount is a trainwreck: >!New-PSDrive Z -PsProvider FileSystem -Root \10.40.1.1\export\isos -Persist!<. It’s so bad that Microsoft implemented an alias, ‘mount’, so you can pretend it’s a Linux command and it translates it into Powershell-ese.
Now you gotta upgrade to Windows 11 by next year, use a Microsoft account (Yes, I know the workaround) and let your computer’s contents be indexed and fed to Microsoft in the name of integrating an AI feature that’s complete opaque to the user.
I’m not a frog that likes to be boiled, so I deal with Linux problems which seems quaint by comparison.
Honestly, I don’t know what the difference is other than maybe Samba is easier to work with Windows than NFS? I have never had to use NFS, so there is that.
Yeah, I try to avoid talking about terminal commands, because we are trying to view it from the perspective of an average user. I brought those commands up just to show awareness of similar-esque methods you brought up. Even winget is not resistant to chicanery of some bad actor/s.
As for Windows 11, I’ve been on it since late 2022. It hasn’t caused me any distress, but that’s truly only because of the extra precautions I took when installing it. The workaround you mentioned, alongside of using ChrisTitusTech’s Winutil setup to stop as much bullshit as possible. Again though, an average user wouldn’t even know what’s wrong with Windows to begin with.
I mean, I was able to figure out how MS-DOS worked as a child just be flailing on the keyboard and reading the errors. It was “easy” because now I know it while Macintoshes may as well have been alien technology. A “mouse”?, moving windows?, you have to find programs and click on them instead of just typing?
You’re just used to Windows annoyances and not used to Linux annoyances, that’s all.
For example:
Installing and updating a program on Windows is a horror show compared to using a package manager. It expects average users to find, download and run executable files from the Internet and conditions them to approve elevation for anything that asks.
If Windows breaks, how do you troubleshoot it? Maybe Google knows, maybe rebooting fixes it, if not then possibly re-installing the entire OS. It’s so bad that if you work with Windows clients you probably already have an image of a Windows install because troubleshooting is so much of a pain it’s easier to just completely re-image the machine.
Don’t even get me started on how often Microsoft changes the layout of administration tools and system menus or their tendency to change the name of various system components for no logical reason.
I don’t think Linux is for everyone, but only because most everyone already has years of Windows experience and forgets all of the frustration and learning.
If you used Linux for just as long as you’ve used Windows, then editing fstab would seem as trivial a task as pinning an item to the
start bartaskbar, orlaunching a programstarting an app from thesystem traynotification areasystem tray.It’s kinda funny that as a seasoned Linux user, I never had to edit fstab for years. I just use Gnome Disks if I need automount or format a USB drive.
Yeah, ironic they chose dolphin to make that point since I literally just did it in dolphin ~a month ago and it has a checkbox to set up automount for you.
Not on all distros, which again, makes the point of how confusing Linux can be to average users… lol
I don’t think I’ve seen OpenSUSE recommended for beginners.
The vast universe of distros is definitely a confusion & intimidation factor for a lot of people. But we are talking about people who do not choose or install their own OS in the first place.
It was the first distro that got me to really want to stay on it. It’s literally almost perfect. It figures that I would want to stay on a more nuanced distro than I am probably knowledgeable to use, but it’s been so stable since I installed it. :,)
I agree. It’s a part of the conversation I always have when I’m talking about Linux in person with someone. I find it both really fucking awesome, but also kind of a bad thing in the sense of “which distro would you recommend” turns into a thesis. x)
You’d have an argument… if OpenSUSE was “average”. While it’s somewhat popular, it’s not nearly representative of “average” linux.
I’ve never met a SUSE user publicly. I’ve met Debian and Arch users.
Just because you found one modern distro that doesn’t do something doesn’t mean that it’s a common problem. But even then, you’re coloring your argument quite silly here. The “average” user has no fucking clue what a NAS is, and wouldn’t care to “mount” anything as if they had a NAS for some reason they’d likely only ever use it the web GUI for anything they did.
The “average” is really dumb comparatively to most linux power users…
This specific issue you’ve contrived… wouldn’t ever come up for an “average” user.
I’m sorry I upset you, but the issues I’ve stated are true whether they happen to you or not.
Either way, I appreciate your input, so there’s no need for the rudeness. :)
So address nothing I’ve brought… but prescribe a tone to my post that wasn’t there… and claim I was rude?
You must be a troll. All makes sense now.
Sorry. You said I contrived when it is in fact a real scenario I have actually faced, so I kind of just moved on.
I reread it, and I will say that you are right. It’s not a common scenario.
This is also a Linux meme community. It’s okay. I love Linux too.
Yeah, this one gets me, but you are exactly right with “years of experience”. Something goes wrong on my GFs MacBook or Windows PC and she just googles fixes, something goes wrong on her Steamdeck and she hands it to me “I don’t know how to get around the desktop mode”…GOOGLE IT, LEARN, YOU ARENT STUPID! sigh
I mean atleast in terms of the troubleshooting I’ve had to do it’s much easier on Windows. Sure it can be more finicky but if I have a problem 99% of the time I google it and find someone else having the same problem and worst case scenario atleast reinstalling Windows fixes the problem. When I gave Linux a try the amount of times I googled something and either found an out of date solution that didn’t work or was just told that that doesn’t work and you can’t do that was annoying enough that I gave up and went back to Windows. If Linux works for you that’s great but acting like the problems with Linux are just people not being used to it is wrong.
Linux has problems but he is not wrong that a lot of it is not being used to the OS. Finding solutions on the Internet is like a popularity context, of course there is much more of it for windows but even on Linux there is much more for big distros line Ubuntu than other smaller ones.
Now reinstalling windows is not a solution or a good argument, it is saying the problem cannot be fixed. When I used windows that was also my go to solution and very feel things I solved by googling, but I guess in part because I was not as tech savvy as I am now. But I tell you, when I started with Linux I could find solution for all problems that I have that had solutions, now a lot have changed so you do get that some things are outdated but it is just a matter of paying attention if the solution is old or new (side not rant, sites that do not put date on the articles are the worst).
Oh yeah, I naver had to reinstall a Linux machine, maybe I lucked out and didn’t royally fucked anything, but I could always solve problems with the OS without a reinstall. I guess because more easily you can find and know where things changed, like what config files you changed and you can always make a copy. The works case is like booting a live USB and rolling back the changes if the OS does not boot anymore.
I think it depends on what problems you’re talking about as well. A lot of the problems I faced with Linux was with programs not working or certain features not being supported. Where as with windows the problems tend to be more of bugs or weird behaviors from the os itself. Sure you can say reinstalling isn’t a good solution as it’s annoying to do but if it makes the problem go away it is a solution. Meanwhile on Linux if a program isn’t supported and isn’t popular enough to have people figure out how to make it work it just doesn’t work and there is no work around other than either trying to figure it out yourself or just using windows. Sure you can maybe argue that that’s an experience difference as if you had experience with getting programs to work the figure it out yourself part wouldn’t be hard but if anything I think that shows that it’s not just a different set of experience but also generally requires more experience to be proficient with Linux versus being proficient with Windows. Although that probably comes down more to what you consider as being proficient.
I only say that reinstalling is not solving a problem in the context of troubleshooting and finding a fix. But yes, is not a good solution because it is a pain. I did so much reinstalling in my windows years that one of the best things I did was to learn to create a separated partition to use for data because it make reinstalling so much easier (it was back in the days of winME and it was an event to do a reinstall, we would usually go to a friend’s house with the HD or the whole machine just to be able to backup everything).
About the software it is like I mentioned (maybe in other comment) with hardware compatibility. If it is a windows first software, usually Linux support is done in “best effort”, so always lags behind. This is specially true to closed source software as the community can’t even help. In any case, one sad reality is that programmers usually are terrible at building and packaging software for release, and that is not a Linux only problem. The famous dll hell on older windows were due to terrible packaging. That is why docker is so popular, so people don’t have to bother with packaging.
For FLOSS software what I usually see is in software not on the distro repos and it not being compatible with the distro because the devs don’t build for it. With closed source/binary-only what I see the most is broken dependencies because they build it wrong, targeting the OS libraries instead of bundling everything with the package.
I have like the exact opposite issue. I’ve used windows for most of my life but it’s so so much harder to actually fix issues in windows compared to Linux
And for me, the big reason for this is because windows is a black box, Linux is not. You are always able to dig however deep you’d like in Linux compared to windows. Now, that might not be relevant for a layperson directly, but what it does mean is that someone else can understand the system component intimately and help you.
Meanwhile on windows the amount of “run this command that we auto-post to every issue report that doesn’t work” I’ve seen is ridiculous, and it never solved the problem. And then I try to dig into how to actually solve it, and really struggle so much more.
Also, Microsoft just sucks as a company. Recently I’ve wanted to clone a windows installation to an external drive. Should work fine, right? I could easily get that to work for Linux, and any issue that popped up I could fix. So, tried to use clonezilla, didn’t work. Ok fine, let me reinstall. Turns out Microsoft dropped support for windows on an external drive. Well that’s garbage and dumb, as I’ve used this to my benefit in the past. But turns out, people say it still actually works, you just need to use a third party tool. Which doesn’t inspire confidence, but whatever
And it did work in the end, but it took me many many hours of extra work of trying to figure out what the problem was, giving up, then looking for more information on alternate solutions, then finally finding something that worked, albeit with more work on my part
But if it was a Linux installation I’d have been finished in an hour probably, because I expect that cloning a drive would work without much issue there
Installing programs through Windows is now (thankfully) more align with Linux.
winget install firefox > see two different forms, one from Windows Store (ew) and the one provided and hosted by Mozilla > winget install mozilla.firefox > program installs
When updating: winget upgrade shows available updates > winget upgrade --all updates all the listed programs
Not as good as Linux of course, but much better than the old method you stated. That point I will give to you, as it is still not simple for the average user. “Terminal? WTF is that?”
I generally don’t have any annoyances with Windows because it does the things I need it to. I don’t find a UAC popups as annoying, because it is supposed to help prevent people from messing their computer up. The same could be said for the average person on Linux running random commands they found online because the thing they were expecting their computer to do isn’t doing the thing.
Windows has never broken on me, so I do not have a good rebuttal for that. I can at least say that when Linux has been borked before on my own hardware, I essentially had to put the ISO back on the single USB I owned at the time just to reinstall the entire OS again, because again, I didn’t know anything about Linux at this time. While in Windows, if the computer doesn’t boot properly 3 times, it brings up the Windows Recovery menu that has in plain English what available options you have to get your install back in at least some working manner. Again, you must keep the average person in mind. You and I are not what I would consider average in this context.
Again, point to you for the changes to UI that Micro$oft introduce. Very, very, very stupid UI/UX redesign choices, and without an alternate avenue at that! (there are a few programs that try to replace some of the Windows UI to get it back to how it should be, but of course that can introduce entirely new issues…)
I’ve been knuckle dragging my way into Linux more and more for 15 years. That’s why I have such a strong opinion on what they could do better for the average people. UI/GUI is a must have to get people to even consider ditching Windows. That’s without even taking into consideration that most of the programs I run personally do not even have a Linux alternative, and Wine/Bottles/Lutris/Heroic can not remedy without loads of understanding what you’re supposed to change here and there for that specific program. That is a real nightmare in my view.
You are mostly correct that I am very much more used to the “plug and play and it just works” of Windows, but having to go and edit some config file somewhere on my computer, instead of it just being an option in the settings or in the file manager itself, is just insane to a person who just wants to set it and forget it, like I can do with Windows.
Obviously, my time with Windows is not the average either, so I can see your points. I love Linux, what it stands for, and how it is community driven. I want it to be better so I can finally delete Windows forever.
I still use and support the users of Windows.
I do like winget (and chocolate), but the software repo doesn’t have everything and so people are still conditioned into going online and searching for executable file to run as admin.
I can’t count the amount of times that I’ve had to reinstall Windows because a user was tricked into downloading the wrong file and infected themselves (and the rest of the network).
I’d say that if you had a brand new person who needed to learn an OS then Windows and Linux are very close in difficulty as of today. I prefer to use Linux because I like the amount of information and control that is afforded to me
But, I play video games, use VR and deal with applications that only support Windows so I have a Windows drive handy.
Sure, mapping a (Samba) network drive is easy, and possible via GUI, in Windows, but have you tried to use NFS?
You need a Professional license ($100) first of all, and even then, you can only use NFSv3. The Powershell
commandcmdlet to mount is a trainwreck: >!New-PSDrive Z -PsProvider FileSystem -Root \10.40.1.1\export\isos -Persist!<. It’s so bad that Microsoft implemented an alias, ‘mount’, so you can pretend it’s a Linux command and it translates it into Powershell-ese.Now you gotta upgrade to Windows 11 by next year, use a Microsoft account (Yes, I know the workaround) and let your computer’s contents be indexed and fed to Microsoft in the name of integrating an AI feature that’s complete opaque to the user.
I’m not a frog that likes to be boiled, so I deal with Linux problems which seems quaint by comparison.
Honestly, I don’t know what the difference is other than maybe Samba is easier to work with Windows than NFS? I have never had to use NFS, so there is that.
Yeah, I try to avoid talking about terminal commands, because we are trying to view it from the perspective of an average user. I brought those commands up just to show awareness of similar-esque methods you brought up. Even winget is not resistant to chicanery of some bad actor/s.
As for Windows 11, I’ve been on it since late 2022. It hasn’t caused me any distress, but that’s truly only because of the extra precautions I took when installing it. The workaround you mentioned, alongside of using ChrisTitusTech’s Winutil setup to stop as much bullshit as possible. Again though, an average user wouldn’t even know what’s wrong with Windows to begin with.